Open mike 23/03/2022

Written By: notices and features - Date published: - 93 comments
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93 comments on “Open mike 23/03/2022”

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  1. 1

    Whatabout,whataboutry!

    Is it a legitimate component of robust argument or a simpletons response a la 2 wrongs make…a right.

    It was a constant feature of the Key Govt for 9 years-'Labour did it too'.

    It seems to have fallen out of favour with the right these days.

    Those with double standards and full blown hypocrites seem to despise it with a …passion.sad

    Imo if it's fact,it's fact and perfectly…acceptable.

    3. 1.3

      What about you learn a little bit more about the topic before spouting off on something you don't understand. Whataboutism is a variant of the logical fallacy of ad hominem argument where the user accuses the other of hypocrisy without addressing the issue. It is particularly common in the spreading of propaganda by those who wish to draw attention away from an otherwise untenable position.

      1. 1.3.1

        Children use this form of 'argument' often usually ending in tongues being poked out. A simple expression of the inability to marshall thoughts and views to mount an argument of words if you are either the child doing the 'whataboutery' or the unfortunate one trying to argue back.

        Of course harking back to times when something was done differently is fine as long as it is relevant, and the arguer teases out the similarities and differences, pros & cons of the two approaches/times.

      2. 1.3.2

        Really?

        Whatabout Merriam-Websters definition?

        'The meaning of WHATABOUTISM is the act or practice of responding to an accusation of wrongdoing by claiming that an offense committed by another is similar or worse; also : the response itself —called also whataboutery.'

        1. 1.3.2.1

          So having looked up the meaning you still can't see the fact that it is a fallacious form of argument, and as Shanreagh also a typical response by kids. Childish.

    1. 2.1

      The Ukrainian children's camps are so much more wholesome, with endorsement and funding from the Ministry of Youth and Sport, eh sport

      During a break in training, a teenager played a nationalist march on his guitar. It was decorated with a sticker showing white bombs hitting a mosque, under the motto, "White Europe is Our Goal."

      "You need to be aware of all that," said instructor Ruslan Andreiko. "All those gender things, all those perversions of modern Bolsheviks who have come to power in Europe and now try to make all those LGBT things like gay pride parades part of the education system."

      https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukrainian-nationalist-camp-training-kids-to-kill/

      1. 2.1.1

        They certainly knew what was coming.

        "That's why I came to this camp. To study how to protect myself and my loved ones"

    2. 3.2

      Currently suffering from Long Covid evidently takes 8 weeks so only 5 1/2 weeks to go bit like the flu, hopefully gone after 8 weeks. Friends of mine who have had have ardly been affected.

      1. 3.2.1

        Yes but Long Covid is much more long lasting and pernicious that just 8 weeks. I had heard that it can take up to 8 weeks to recover from Covid.

        Long Covid is what takes place after the body has seemingly dealt with Covid itself. Some after effects, that may or may not have manifested themselves during the infection phase are:

        kidney issues

        cardiac issues

        clotting

        continued neurological issues, memory, brain fog

        This can come about often months after the initial Covid infection such as a heart attack.

        From the article

        • There was evidence that some individuals experienced symptoms that began at the time of the initial infection and that, for others, symptoms arose some time after the initial infection had resolved and that one of the key features was a pattern of remitting/relapsing symptoms;
        • New chronic diseases emerged among those with long COVID, suggesting that it could well be a serious burden on individuals, family and whanau, communities, and the healthcare system well into the future: lung fibrosis, cardiac damage, multi organ damage on MRI, abnormal brain metabolism and cognitive impairment, thrombo-embolism, and questions about diabetes.

        The very best idea is not to get Covid at all, just in case you are the one playing Russian Roulette with Long Covid. It apparently is not related to the severity of the initial illness so you can have a mild infection but still suffer from Long Covid.

    3. 3.3

      Interestingly, I personally know of a few younger people, all under 40, vaccinated and healthy individuals, who have had a rough time with having covid.

      I find that concerning as I was under the impression that omicron was mild and this group would have the best outcomes.

      1. 3.3.1

        Affects people differently I am double jabbed reasonably fit mid 60's, friends who have had it, have just had a sore throat, headache and dry sinus's and the thing is gone within 4-5 days ?

        1. 3.3.2.1

          I second Incognito…….

          Omicron is not mild. People can have a less severe infection but others can be very badly affected. It was very sad/bad that this myth of 'mild' Omicron was able to get such a hold here as I think it may have made some people less careful, thinking that it is just a cold, something mild……

          It is very infectious and that means more people have the possibility of getting it and more people will run the risk with possibly having Long Covid.

          1. 3.3.2.2.1

            Of course, you would. Find somebody who uses the words “mild” and “Omicron” in the same sentence, compare with your anecdotal ‘evidence’, and out comes your impression. What could go wrong? How could you go wrong?

  4. 4

    Three more years of center-left governance in Canada, conservatives bitch & moan: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60837941

    Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's Liberal minority government has reached a deal with the New Democratic Party (NDP) to stay in power until 2025. In exchange, the Liberals will support the left-leaning NDP on several of the party's key priorities in parliament. Speaking at a news conference on Tuesday, Mr Trudeau said that the deal – which he termed a "supply and confidence" agreement – begins today and will continue through the end of Canada's current parliament in 2025.

    The deal differs to a coalition, where parties share power. Instead, the Liberals – who failed to win a majority in the past two elections – will continue to govern as a minority, but with assurances the NDP will support them in confidence votes.

    While Mr Trudeau predicted that the two parties would continue to disagree in some areas, he said they had identified some key policy areas in which they share similar objectives, including healthcare, housing and the environment.

    The deal differs to a coalition, where parties share power. Instead, the Liberals – who failed to win a majority in the past two elections – will continue to govern as a minority, but with assurances the NDP will support them in confidence votes.

    Last year, NDP leader Jagmeet Singh ruled out a formal agreement with the Liberals, but said that he was willing to support Mr Trudeau. At a separate news conference on Tuesday, Mr Singh said that his party views the agreement as the best way to "help people", particularly when it comes to developing a national dental care programme for low-income Canadians and a national prescription drug programme, and on issues like climate and housing.

    Ahead of Mr Trudeau's announcement, Candice Bergen, leader of Canada's Conservative Party, slammed the Liberal-NDP agreement as a "callous attempt by Trudeau to hold on to power". "This is little more than backdoor socialism," she said in a statement. "This is an NDP-Liberal attempt at government by blackmail. Nation-building is replaced by vote-buying; secret deal-making over parliamentary debate; and opportunism over accountability."

    It's actually normal democracy. Hysterical tossing diverse strawmen framings at media is unlikely to impress anyone…

  5. 5

    No Dennis, don't you understand-it is "backdoor socialism".smileysmileysmiley

    The agreement was always going to happen when the election results were called on the night. Singh (leader of the left-leaning NDP, and who seems to be a popular leader) got 18% in the election but only 25 seats. Trudeau's Liberals got 33% but got 160 seats. It follows that, given 170 seats are needed to form a government, the NDP were bound to have influence.

    The Conservatives got 34% but only 119 seats.

    It looks like a poor electoral system compared with MMP.

    1. 5.1

      smiley I guess the proof of that pudding will be in the eating, eh? Given they both seem to see an overlap of interests, and thus political common ground, we'll eventually get legislation that is genuinely progressive.

      Whether that is socialist or not will be open to interpretation. Justin will feel that it will happen only over his dead liberal body, of course. I was quite impressed by his political autobiography – he's a principled fella, just insufficiently audacious for me. Similar to Ardern. So I expect a govt just like ours…

  6. 6

    Bomber performs full blown Olympic grade pommel horse routine over a shark.

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/03/23/labour-can-not-dodge-an-independent-inquiry-into-how-mallard-incited-parliament-lawn-protest/

    His editor clearly selected the headline claiming that the protest was about Mallard from the beginning, so we can't hold Martin responsible for the headline. During the opinion this is walked back to Trevor incited them for 3 weeks straight before the police saw the the protesters driven before them and listened to the lamentation of their women.

  7. 7

    Time to buckle up I think

    Things may be about to heat up

    US Navy Deploys Carrier Strike Group in Med to Implement Ukraine No-Fly Zone If Biden Gives Order

    https://www.farsnews.ir/en/news/14010102000435/US-Navy-Deplys-Carrier-Srike-Grp-in-Med-Implemen-Ukraine-N-Fly-Zne-If

    In a string of Sunday show interviews, U.S. and global security officials also said potential NATO topics include the prospect of deploying a peacekeeping force in Ukraine and the chances of Russian-Ukrainian peace talks. They again warned Russia against the use of chemical weapons in Ukraine.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/03/20/war-ukraine-nato-discuss-more-support-against-russian-invasion/7112857001/

    Article 4 has been triggered (on the day of the invasion)

    Biden will attend the NATO summit on Thursday (our Friday?)

    And again, the threats from Stoltenberg and Sullivan if chemical weapons are used Perfect time for a last ditch attempt by Zelensky to trigger direct western intervention

    Chemical weapon use at this stage would benefit the Ukrainians, not the Russians

    1. 7.1

      Read the article "no fly zone " is not a quote it's an interpretation of the USA's actions by by an Iranian News Site – that is a stupendously long stretch.

    2. 7.2

      The carrier Harry S Truman (not the "USS Truman") has been in the Mediterranean since December and it's flying deterrence missions along with other NATO partners. There is no particular indication that it is preparing for offensive action, although an aircraft carrier is a powerful ship.

      "…Chemical weapon use at this stage would benefit the Ukrainians, not the Russians…"

      Clearly you've had a lot to think about since you were evicted from Parliament’s front lawn.

      1. 7.2.1

        Your "intelligence" is faulty.

        Nowhere near Wellington , ridiculously obedient to all the scanning in, mask wearing, vax etc

        Sorry to disappoint your crude assumptions

    3. 7.3

      Obviously, no matter what side anyone is on no one seem to notice that, if you don't allow your enemy to save face thigs escalate to levels not wanted or anticipated. And to be honest, Zelensky is an actor, so he plays a role and gets applauded for it. I view this with unease which does not mean that I support the invasion. Just the scenario seem to be "odd".

  8. 8

    For a generation now, third-way centrism as political praxis has been defeating the left – if you correlate the left with socialism. Yet…

    A 2018 Gallup poll showed 51% of young Americans felt positively about the term socialism

    https://areomagazine.com/2022/03/14/practical-politics-meagan-day-and-micah-uetrichts-bigger-than-bernie/

    Our PM has described herself as socialist along with a bunch of her Labour caucus colleagues (according to a media report I cited here a week or two back). I presume the reason our media has never cited evidence she's telling the truth is due to no journos being able to find any. So why are liberals continuing to pretend that they are really socialists? It's a baffling question which the above linked essay may throw some light on.

    the Corbyn campaign in the UK is often compared to Sanders’: both were left-of-centre campaigns that unexpectedly gained popularity in 2016 and seemed on the cusp of victory by the late 2010s—and both ended up disappointing. A helpful analysis of the Corbyn campaign is Leo Panitch’s and Colin Leys’ recent book, Searching for Socialism: The Project of the Labour New Left from Benn to Corbyn.

    They point out that Corbyn was handicapped by significant elite hostility from within the Labour party, but also by being unable to attract both the support of Labour voters who were newer to the party (many of whom were highly educated, London-centred and anti-Brexit) and Labour’s historically core voters (many of whom are blue collar, heartland-centred, and pro-Brexit). They also note that this experience exposed a deep divide on the left—between its liberal, internationalist wing (which is often more focused on cultural than economic issues) and its economically egalitarian base, many of whose members hold conservative views on social issues such as national identity and immigration. The American left is handicapped by similar divides

    As usual nowadays the writers fail to get to the guts of the issue: how perceptions of common ground can be framed to bridge the divide. Liberals defend the status quo via practical politics whilst pretending to make progress. Leftists could control a center-left govt that actually delivers progress if they learnt how to combine liberal pragmatism with know-how can-do expertise – instead of just criticising centrists for lack of ideological commitment – thus becoming winners rather than losers.

    1. 8.1

      Leave the inadequacies of the writers behind.

      We managed the balance just fine here for 3 terms under Helen Clark.

      Budget 2022 will give a strong indication of whether we will do it for 3 terms again.

  9. 9

    Jong Kee runs the well worn announcement to an announcement meme, inferring those in cabinet are actors interested in "maximum theatre", rather than the wellbeing of New Zealand's most vulnerable.

    He asks, and answers his own question, "why do you have restrictions on anything – the answer is to keep people safe". That's right, and Omicron has killed about 130 people in the last month alone, more than tripling our Covid casualties.

    These people appear invisible to the National Party, old and new.

    If anyone is still in doubt about what New Zealand's Covid response would have looked like had Surge-On been in charge, see his laissez-faire comments to chief fluffer this morning.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-outbreak-john-key-criticises-government-over-delayed-announcements-jacinda-ardern-set-to-reveal-vaccine-mandate-decisions/Y7Q2IUNO7M3RD5YJ7M75XPKYNY/

        1. 9.1.2.1

          There are people on the right who have similar feelings about Helen Clark – and in future will feel the same about Ardern. It's not an exclusively 'left' thing.

          It does raise an interesting question though; are lefties angrier and unhappier? Instinctively there has to be some truth to it – if you think the world needs improving, and that it's actually possible to do so, that's quite an irritation.

          The right on the whole seem happier with the way things are, maybe because it mostly serves them pretty well. There are things to admire about their contentment, but at what point does it become oafishness?

      4. 9.1.4

        You won't. Been a lefty your stress and torment about the state of the world will drive you to an early grave.

        "Don't worry be happy"

      5. 9.1.5

        Comments like that reflect badly on the person making them. You are probably the sort of person that would throw eggs at politicians too.

        [Why don’t you leave your speculations and assumptions out of it – they only serve to make the other person look bad, but that may be your intention [see what I did there?]. This is how flaming wars start – Incognito]

            1. 9.1.5.1.1.1

              I have no idea if it caused any offence because it wasn’t directed at me – it may or may not have. I don’t like people starting flame wars because I’m not a volunteer firefighter here and you are not a pyromaniac, are you?

    3. 9.3

      Jong Kee did run one of the World's Leading Merchant Banks and developed NZ into a Rockstar Economy.

  10. 10

    Russian army gone to the dogs:

    Russian soldiers eat the best possible nutritious rations of any military, so long as it’s dog food. You can get a flavor of what’s going wrong on the ground in Ukraine from a story Reuters ran 11 years ago. The news agency reported ex-Maj. Igor Matveyev saying: “It’s embarrassing to say, but soldiers here were fed dog food. It was fed to them as stew.” The tins of dog food were covered up with labels reading “premium quality beef.”

    The Ukrainians have found abandoned Russian army vehicles with food rations with “eat by” dates from seven years ago. What is so gloriously ironic is that the man responsible is one of the Kremlin’s favorite gangster cronies, Yevgeny Prigozhin, known as “Putin’s Chef.” With close ties to Russian military intelligence, the GRU, Prigozhin, an ex-convict in Soviet times, has run troll farms and the murderous mercenary unit, the Wagner Group, named after Hitler’s favorite composer. His empire has taken over 90% of the business of supplying food to the Russian army. The Ukrainians have released several videos of starving Russian soldiers scavenging for food. And that’s down to Prigozhin and his boss.

    Investigative journalist Christo Grozev has tweeted, “While Russian soldiers are starving and breaking into Ukrainians’ homes begging for bread, Prigozhin’s ‘not for sale’ military food rations have flooded Russia’s ebay-like sites at $3 a can.”

    Irina Borogan and Andrei Soldatov, both investigative journalists and experts on Russia’s security services, suggest that Putin’s paranoia is corroding trust inside the holy of holies, the Russian secret state. They report that the head of the FSB’s foreign intelligence service and its deputy are “being held after allegations of misusing operational funds earmarked for subversive activities and for providing poor intelligence ahead of Russia’s now-stuttering invasion.”

    https://newlinesmag.com/first-person/putins-killing-machine-that-isnt-working/

      1. 10.1.1

        I've been a little wary of other humans since I was a wee boy. Something about them triggered a primal instinct.

        Bellingcat is an independent international collective of researchers, investigators and citizen journalists using open source and social media investigation to probe a variety of subjects – from Mexican drug lords and crimes against humanity, to tracking the use of chemical weapons and conflicts worldwide.

        With staff and contributors in more than 20 countries around the world, we operate in a unique field where advanced technology, forensic research, journalism, investigations, transparency and accountability come together. https://www.bellingcat.com/about/

        So yeah, any enterprise dedicated to providing an alternative to the msm ought to make any critical thinker deeply suspicious…

  11. 11

    What do you get when you take Steven Crowder, a conference hosted by Massey Uni and a paper entitled “Embracing Fatness as Self-Care in the Era of Trump” and add them together, well you get something like this:

            1. 11.1.1.1.1.1

              If it involved drinking out a gumboot at the Fitz or got you an invite to one of the Vet parties… then yes I expect

              1. 11.1.1.1.1.1.1

                Ahh the Fitz, for my brother it was Eagle Rock and the Railway, for me the Cobb, the Railway and Highflyers

                Good times

  12. 12

    Nick Robinson "spent ten years as political editor for the BBC" according to Wikipedia. His tweet included in this examination of evidence of cluster bomb usage in Ukraine features a Russian MP telling him that Russia doesn't do that – so the Ukrainians may be dropping cluster bombs on themselves.

    Or could be extraterrestrials doing it? Anyway, the photos & technical details identifying them as Russian-made are here: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of-world/2022/03/11/these-are-the-cluster-munitions-documented-by-ukrainian-civilians/

    1. 15.1

      Super mystery – perhaps look on their website where they list their funding sources and donor policy etc

      https://www.bellingcat.com/about/

      “Bellingcat does not solicit or accept funding and contributions directly from any national government. Bellingcat can solicit or accept contributions from international or intergovernmental institutions such as the European Commission or the United Nations. Bellingcat can accept or solicit funding that is distributed by a private foundation that accepts government funds, so long as it is independent from any national government. We will not allow any funding relationship to constrain us from criticising any bodies that provide funds, exposing any wrongdoing in which said bodies may be involved or impact our editorial independence.”

      1. 15.1.1

        Well they would say that wouldn't they? hat tip to Mandy Rice Davies

        https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/20/reuters-bbc-uk-foreign-office-russian-media/

        The UK FCO projects were carried out covertly, and in partnership with purportedly independent, high-profile online media outfits including Bellingcat, Meduza, and the Pussy Riot-founded Mediazona. Bellingcat’s participation apparently included a UK FCO intervention in North Macedonia’s 2019 elections on behalf of the pro-NATO candidate.

    3. 15.3

      "Higgins launched the Bellingcat platform (in its beta version) on 14 July 2014,[3][4][25] raised £50k of private donations in the following month through the crowdfunding platform Kickstarter,[26] and performed additional crowdfunding in 2017.[20] Half of funding comes from grants and donations, the other half from running workshops training people in the art of open-source investigations.[27][20]

      Since 2018 the Bellingcat website is operated by the Dutch Stichting Bellingcat [Wikidata].[1] (tr. Bellingcat Foundation).[28][29] Bellingcat has received grants from Civitates-EU,[30][31] Porticus [Wikidata] the Brenninkmeijer family philanthropy, Adessium Foundation, National Endowment for Democracy (NED), PAX for Peace,[20][32] Open Society Foundation (OSF), the Dutch Postcode Lottery, the Digital News Initiative,[1][33][20] Zandstorm CV and Sigrid Rausing Trust.[34] Higgins has said much of the grant money does not directly fund investigations and is used for support services such as document translations and training.[20] The organisation publishes guides on how to analyse data and how to create reports, such as "How to Scrape Interactive Geospatial Data" and "How to Identify Burnt Villages by Satellite Imagery".[27]

      Bellingcat received a €500,000 cash prize from the Nationale Postcode Loterij of The Netherlands; it used these funds to open a new office in The Hague in 2019.[35]

      The Bellingcat website also lists the in kind support in the form of 'software access and platform resources' from the software firms: Datayo, Hunchly, Maltego, Mapbox, Planet, RiskIQ, Vizlegal.[34]

      Higgins told Polygraph.info that grants from the NED and OSF pay for Bellingcat programmes to help journalists and researchers in their investigations.[20] He said that "Most our funding from grants covers stuff that isn't related to investigating anything Russia related."[20][5][36][37][2][35]

      According to the i newspaper, Bellingcat is notable for its transparency, as Bellingcat investigative reports describe "how they found out the story and which techniques they used".[38]

      As of approximately 2019, the organisation had sixteen[5] full-time staff plus Higgins, and at least 60 contributors.[27] Its office was previously located in Leicester;[27] however in 2018, Bellingcat shifted its main office to Amsterdam, in the Netherlands as a result of the impending Brexit and concerns over staff recruitment and mobility.[39] Since 2021, Bellingcat has also had a presence in a new Investigative Commons centre in Berlin, Germany.[39]

      As reported in Foreign Policy, one of the unintended consequences of open-source intelligence outlets such as Bellingcat (and others) is that it gives the US intelligence community freedom to discuss Russian intelligence operations publicly without revealing their own sources or methods.[40]

      On 8 October 2021, Bellingcat was designated as a "foreign agent" in Russia"

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellingcat#:~:text=Bellingcat%20has%20received%20grants%20from,CV%20and%20Sigrid%20Rausing%20Trust.

  16. 16

    Really interesting interview with Zelenskyy just out on DW. 25 minutes long, good to hear his perspective straight from the horse's mouth.

  17. 17

    Thanks, Uncooked.

    That disclaimer doesn't exclude intelligence agencies or thinktanks.

    I followed the Skripal case and Bellingcat's annotations thereon. Reads like a thriller script by a fifth-form English class.

  18. 18

    NED does the work that years ago the CIA did covertly, and Bellingcat lists the NED as one of its funders

  19. 19

    The average wage in Ukraine is around $400 a month.

    Known as the most corrupt country in Europe…this story helps explain…why..

    The glamorous wife of a prominent Ukrainian tycoon and politician 'carried £22 million in cash through a refugee border crossing into the EU', it is alleged.

    The money – in US dollars and euros – was spotted by Hungarian customs in the baggage of the spouse of controversial ex-MP Igor Kotvitsky, 52, say reports.

    Ukrainian tycoon's wife 'carried £22 million in cash through a refugee border crossing into the EU' | Daily Mail Online

    1. 19.1

      After being run as a vassal state of Russia for centuries, it is no surprise that Ukraine has an embedded problem with corruption is it?

      One could easily argue that escaping that dead hand is precisely why the Ukrainian people are literally sacrificing their lives to escape it. But you come here making comment after comment sneering at them for this – [self deleted so as Incog doesn't have to.]

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