Open mike 19/01/2022

Written By: notices and features - Date published: - 130 comments
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130 comments on “Open mike 19/01/2022”

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    1. 1.1

      There is a world of difference between concern about potential interference in sensitive aircraft equipment and radical, unproven and alarmist complaints about electromagnetic interference causing cancer.

      1. 1.1.1

        Correct. But… 5G needs way more transmission power. That means way more cell towers. I was going to post a clip of burnt tress around a cell tower. But it seems Google has deleted those clips. Yep, the supposed free internet is cleaning house.

        1. 1.1.1.1

          These days I find the AI-assisted YouTube searches sometimes make finding videos you've seen before harder. I remember you once posting that video elsewhere – but it may not have been a 5G tower.

          There are plenty of hits on YouTube video searches about cell towers & also about 5G concerns, so I don't think YouTube's got a policy of deleting them. You might just need to be more persistent and creative in wording your searches?

          In the meantime, here's something totally unrelated that might cheer you up a bit. Remember this one?

          https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WJeu7-7vUIY

          2. 1.1.1.1.2

            Bro on Bro…chur bro! Yes, I remember that one well. That officer had no doubt done time in South Auckland.

            ''You might just need to be more persistent and creative in wording your searches?''

            That's a problem for someone time poor and in a creative drought. Clips that were once shown first up upon typing a specific request are now lost in a quagmire of peripheral results.

            Talking of unrelated issues, I have been listening to mortgage brokers and the public voice concerns around this ill thought out lending criteria for banks. The latest is a woman to who it was suggested curtail her maternity leave so she could start earning again. Seymour was written to David Clark who has started an inquiry.

            I haven't heard from Luxon yet??

              2. 1.1.1.1.2.1.2

                Dave's mind is on the trail. He's traversing hostile terrain while his fingers feverishly click gear shifts to accommodate the ever changing conditions. Mud and chain lube assail his face. He has to dig deep to find new reserves of energy. He happens upon some hapless Tory in front of him. He draws level and pushes them over the bank. The Tory screams out in pain as blood soaks the National Party logo plastered on the buckled frame of his bike. One less enemy in the ''People's Socialist Republic Of Aotearoa,'' he grins . He sees the finish line ahead. The whanau and a few admirers cheer him on as he crosses the line. Another successful mission in the bag he thinks to himself.

                His thoughts are brought back to reality when a bubbly PA tells him the head of his enquiry is on the phone.

                What? What enquiry, he asks?

                The one you ordered minister. The one enquiring into why people wanting a mortgage had to disclose their toilet roll usage to the banks, she says.

                Oh, for Pete's sake, house ownership is so yesterday. Haven't these morons heard of rental accommodation, he muses?

                That minister, will be determined by your next enquiry, the PA says dryly.

                .

        2. 1.1.1.2

          The only burning around 5 g cell towers is by luddites who don't understand basic physics.

          The reason more towers are needed is because of the size of the radio waves.

          Line of sight because shorter wave lengths don't bend around the earth's curvature.

          Then the power to transmit 5g waves is much smaller milli amps .miniscule.

          So the capacity no pun intended for damage is massively reduced.

          Look up basic physics energy wave lengths before being sucked in by the anti everything brigade.Luddites

          So the energy used is much lower than 4 g or your 1960's TV transmission towers etc.

          Your Microwaves are thousands of more times powerful and more likely to cause problems.
          The magnetron uses 1000watts the transmitter on a cell tower uses milliwatts.

          1. 1.1.1.2.1

            ''Look up basic physics energy wave lengths before being sucked in by the anti everything brigade. Luddites.''

            I'm reasonably well schooled in physics. I'm not being sucked in by anything. I look at all the facts where possible. Physics and medicine are full of Luddites.

    1. 2.1

      "Though a little reported fact is that Covid deaths in the UK have risen from an annual rate of 50k a year to 100k a year due to Omicron."

      How did you discern that from the data in your link for the UK?

      Delta was first detected on 24 November 2021 (Deaths 144,286), and didn't become the dominant strain till mid December (15 Dec – Deaths 146,937). There were still Delta cases included in hospitalisations and death data for a period after that.

      I don't think the data is available yet to make such a claim.

      2. 2.1.2

        Molly: In fact it is worse in the UK than I thought:

        December 28 7-day rolling average deaths 85 that is 31k per annum

        January 17 7-day rolling average deaths 264 that is 96k per annum.

        The January 17 7-day average does not include the 438 deaths on January 18, which would push the deaths average over 100k per annum.

        I think these figures are compelling. You will be aware that there is a time lag between Omicron arriving and deaths increasing.

          1. 2.1.2.1.1

            I haven't attempted to split this out because the vast majority of cases in the UK are now Omicron as I am sure you are aware

            1. 2.1.2.1.1.1

              So, there is no data source regarding the split for deaths?

              (I couldn't find one, and thought you may have).

              I also can't find a timeline for Delta or Omicron deaths from a positive result, that would indicate the lag.

              Everything at the moment is speculation and extrapolation on a short period of uncategorised data.

        2. 2.1.2.2

          Looking at your graphs for the previous spike in deaths in Dec 2020 – March 2021:

          January 21 2021 had the highest daily toll at 1,824, reported infections were 1,852,135.

          Infections on 15 Jan 2022, assumed to be mostly Omicron, 3,694,647 and seems to be starting to trend down. Fatalities on that date, 287. Much lower than last years spike. (If we link deaths to a two week notification, the December 31 reported cases were: 2,472,318)

          There are reasons to consider that case numbers may be under-reported which may account for the apparent peak.

          However, deaths are also trending down.

    2. 2.2

      I can only agree with Mollys scepticism and statement that the data is not in for this yet. In particular your extending a rate across to the general population which is collected from a sub population who died earliest (even if it was all Omicron). The demographics of the worst hit by Omicron are unlikely to match the general population so this extrapolation is not valid.

      Statisticians get this kind of crap projection from prominant anti-vaxers primarily and don't need to also get it from all sides.

      1. 2.2.1

        Presumably both you and Molly accept that the rolling 7 day death rates have tripled in the UK between December and January.

        Isn't it obvious that the most likely reason for this is the massive surge in Omicron cases?

        1. 2.2.1.1

          Those things are both true and insufficient to make that extrapolation valid. What I was saying is its not valid even if all UK cases since December were Omicron.

        2. 2.2.1.2

          Twenty-eight day lag in deaths from positive test – gov.uk

          "Number people who died within 28 days of their first positive test for COVID-19. Data from England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales use different methodologies, so can’t be directly compared."

          I don't think there is sufficient data to identify the true impact of Omicron at this stage, but we will be acquiring it in the coming weeks.

        3. 2.2.1.3

          Currently ~58 million active cases of COVID-19 (and rising rapidly) reported worldwide, i.e. a bit less than 1% of the global population.

          It's encouraging that the most recent surge of cases in:

          South Africa (91,000 active cases and falling; 130 deaths per day*),
          UK (3.6 million active cases – just peaked?; 260 deaths per day),
          Italy (2.5 million active cases and rising; 300 deaths per day)
          France (4.9 million active cases and rising; 220 deaths per day),
          US (24 million active cases and rising; 1,800 deaths per day), and
          Australia (1.8 million active cases and rising; 45 deaths per day)

          has so far resulted in only a smallish (but still tragic) increase in daily COVID deaths. Hope that 'immunity' due to prior infection or vaccination, and improved medical treatments, will keep the number of deaths associated with this latest surge low compared to previous peaks in the pandemic.

          * 'Deaths per day' numbers are current 7-day moving averages

          1. 2.2.1.3.1

            Drowsy: I'm sure the Australians will appreciate your conclusion that the recent 650% rise in deaths due to Covid is "a smallish increase".

            Question: Does the rise to over 100k deaths a year in the UK due to Covid merit treating Covid like ‘flu, which causes 15k deaths a year?

            Because Boris is shortly going to lift all Covid restrictions thus treating Covid like ‘flu.

            [all figures based on 7-day rolling averages]

            1. 2.2.1.3.1.1

              Imho any death from COVID-19 (or 'flu) is regrettable. COVID definitely ain't like 'flu yet, but we can hope (for the best, plan for the worst.) It's just luck that this pandemic hit during the term of a left-leaning govt, or NZ could have been 'led' down the path the US, UK and so many others are following.

              If it was up to me I'd push the length of stay in MIQ back to 14 days (would involve increasing the number of MIQ facilities available, or cancelling some existing MIQ vouchers), with a PCR test at least every second day.

              It's evident that NZ MIQ staff are doing an excellent job, but they're only human, and yesterday’s record 77 Australian lives lost to COVID certainly gave me pause for thought.

              Public health expert Professor Michael Baker also thought they’d be “pretty close to 100 per cent”, given this is group “most exposed>/em>” to the threat of Omicron.

              “Given the incredibly high level of exposure likely to take place, you’d expect [boosters] were being promoted very vigorously” at the border, as an outbreak could happen “any day now”, he said.

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300498473/covid19-one-in-five-miq-border-workers-yet-to-get-booster-as-omicron-looms

        4. 2.2.1.4

          It's possible, but they're also in the middle of winter and fuck knows what's going on in the UK re: distancing, xmas parties, and so on.

          It could just be that delta is still enough to be the bulk of the deaths a month after omicron popped up, while omicron is massively popular but not nearly as lethal – albeit so far.

          tl,dr: The italics mean "who knows? Like, maybe?".

  3. 3

    Late last year the new National Party leader told the media that his favourite animal is the hamster, and I reported the news here at the time. He may choke on his corn flakes this morning if he spots this on his iPad:

    Unlike many other places, Hong Kong has maintained a "zero Covid" strategy focused on eliminating the disease. Officials said it may be an example of animal-to-human Covid transmission. Only the hamsters at the pet shop seemed to be affected, with negative results for other animals there such as rabbits and chinchillas. But as a "preventative measure", 2,000 hamsters and other small mammals will be killed.

    The animals are spread across 34 different pet shops and animal storage centres. And any new pet owners who bought a hamster since 22 December, perhaps as a Christmas gift, will need to hand the animal over to authorities for euthanasia.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-60038551

    So here's an excellent opportunity for him to speak up for animal rights and lead a fightback against the Hong Kong authorities. If he doesn't, the guy's a wimp.

    It's all because 11 hamsters tested positive for covid. Using the same logic, all the citizens of Hong Kong would have to be killed due to some of them testing positive. The Nat leader ought to issue a press release pointing that out. Thin end of the wedge. Someone is likely to spot the logic, pass it on to Soros & Gates, & we'll get the globalist cabal lurching into action in all infected cities…

      1. 3.1.1

        That is being mean. You are demonstrating the Dennis doesn't read very well.

        I suppose they are both rodents of course. If I remember correctly confusing hamsters and guinea pigs would be like saying that all monkeys are human beings because they are both primates.

        Perhaps that is fair though. Dennis would certainly seem to qualify as a howler monkey given that mistake. After all a definition of howler is "a very stupid or glaring mistake, especially an amusing one".

        On the other hand I might qualify. I never did study Zoology and I might have the levels of the taxonomic ranks all wrong.

          1. 3.1.1.2.1

            Sorry. On checking I find that primates are the overall name for the group, and that monkeys and apes are different species within that group.

            1. 3.1.1.2.1.1

              That’s correct. And the ape classification includes the Lesser Apes apes: gibbons and siamangs (SE Asia) & the Great Apes.

              The Great Apes are: gorillas, chimpanzees, orangutans, bonobos, and humans!

              1. 3.1.1.2.1.1.1

                Does that mean that by some miracle I got it right? Amazing.

                I tried, but never could master, all the levels and their sequence. As to what was a class and order or a family and where a "primate" fitted was totally beyond me. I studied Physics for my first attempt at a discipline as you could avoid all those things.

                Zoology seemed to be like Geology. The subjects, and the students who chose to study them, seemed to be the most boring in the whole University.

                Sorry to anyone I might have insulted. On the other hand I won't be like a politician and I won't say "I'm sorry to anyone who might have felt they were offended"

                1. 3.1.1.2.1.1.1.1

                  Primate variation is interesting! It was once thought humans were different due to tools, then archaeologists found tools in proto-human sites, so the earliest toolmaker became homo habilis.

                  Then a decade ago it got shifted back a million years to an earlier species: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100811135039.htm

                  Those austrolopithecines were sort of half-way between ape & human. Walked upright but only around 1m high, brain-size same as chimp.

                  https://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-family-tree

                  At last count, the Middle Awash project, which takes its name from this patch of the Afar desert and includes 70 scientists from 18 nations, has found 300 specimens from seven different hominid species that lived here one after the other. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-human-familys-earliest-ancestors-7372974/

                  Plus genetics has confirmed that we have some neanderthal & denisovan genes – proof of interbreeding between the three species.

                  1. 3.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1

                    The story I liked, and I don't remember where I first read it, was than humans developed because the learnt to cook food, particularly meat. This was supposed to increase the energy they could get from food and meant that they developed bigger brains.

                    It is certainly my excuse when vegetarian friends wince when I say I like a large, juicy steak. I refuse to listen to people who claim that cooking vegetables provides all the same benefits.

                    I hadn't realised that they had found 7 different species of hominids in the the same small area though. Evolution was really running amok in that part of the world. It must have been like Grand Central Station in New York. If you spend any time there you will meet everybody you have ever known.

        3. 3.1.1.3

          Hey, Luxon said hamster – the quote was in the news report I reproduced onsite here. What part of that are you having trouble figuring out??

          Anyway, the important thing is that the communist regime's reps in HK have decided that the best way to deal with covid is to eliminate the entire infected population. Of hamsters. Anytime now they'll be saying to each other "The experiment works well for hamsters. May as well apply it to people too."

          Nostalgia for Stalin is a thing in Russia so no surprise if nostalgia for Mao is a thing in China. Expect western dissidents to connect the dots to Soros etc…

  4. 4

    Reply to Foreign waka 13.2 – 18 Jan

    :Worse than gangs? Really? Why not move next door to gang members, it must be a lot less dangerous than moving next to an unvaccinated person."

    Gangs have actually been supporting the vaccine rollout in Auckland and Northland and assisting Hone Harawira at checkpoints with Police, not causing trouble at vax centres. That's community support in my view.

    I have lived in "the hood" New Plymouth for 10 years. Surrounded by state houses with regular visits from Gang members next door, never had a problem. As a male I do feel intimidated by them but no hassles whatsoever. Drugs and crime is a separate issue, I am only referring to anti vax protest behaviour, nothing else, and only a minority at that. Lets not confuse the overall Gang scene with AV protest. I do not condone Gangs at all.

    Reply to RedLogix 13.1.1.1- Jan 18

    "Time to snap out of the trance Greenbus – before you do something you will be eternally shamed for."

    Sorry to disappoint you RL but I'm the type of citizen that will step in to help others being assaulted by morons causing trouble, at considerable personal risk I might add. I've done so on 4 occasions while onlookers did just that.

    Aggressive male anti vaxxers inside mobile vans with elderly woman medical staff is not peaceful protest, which I support. I would do my best to protect innocent woman and children from these trouble makers until Police arrived. If that's something to be ashamed of then I will surely go straight to hell when the time comes.

    1. 4.1

      Please link now to the conversations. If you are copy and pasting from another thread, it's easy enough to copy and paste the URLs as well. It's a requirement here to provide a link when you quote.

    2. 4.2

      Aggressive male anti vaxxers inside mobile vans with elderly woman medical staff is not peaceful protest, which I support

      Please provide a link to something that shows this. I just did a quick google and couldn't find anything. I've seen multiple claims in the past week that anti-vax protestors are stepping over a line, and none of those provided a link for back up.

      1. 4.2.1

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/127072641/fast-food-workers-call-on-government-for-protection-against-antivax-customers

        https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/12/covid-19-bay-of-plenty-bar-owner-worried-anti-vaxxers-using-fake-vaccine-passes-to-enter-hospitality-businesses.html

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/457373/newmarket-shop-owners-fearful-of-further-anti-vaccine-mandate-protests-i-had-to-lock-the-door

        https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/mitre-10-new-zealand-anti-masker-video-b1983255.html

        Hence why some of us are calling on the Government to enforce its rules by having police out and about in the streets and at entrances of shopping centres so they better can randomly ask people for their vax passes and remove those or fine those that have no passport on them and thus can't prove they are vaxed. Scenes of the police doing so will provide for riveting evening entertainment for those who like to clap when low paid staff on the ground is trying to keep these evil people out of their businesses. Surely, i mean someone could pitch that to the Government, a new Cop Show if you so will, maybe with funding from Creative NZ?

        The reason the government looks lost is because on one side they can arrest Brian Tamaki as the most dangerous person in the country, and on the other side the expect retail staff and take away staff to enforce its laws.

        Vote Labour, we will write bad bad laws, and then we expect the lowest paid member of society to enforce our really bad bad laws.

        2. 4.2.1.2

          thanks, I'm aware of the private business issues. I was asking about the attacks on vaccine clinics.

          Lol NZ police checking identity papers, we're not quite there yet.

            2. 4.2.1.2.1.2

              Judging by responses here, lots of people would be keen on it though.

              Really? I don't think I've seen anyone saying that. If that is what people believe then we probably should be talking about it.

              1. 4.2.1.2.1.2.1

                Two years ago the idea of a vaccine passport was not being talked about either. Yet step by step here we are.

                It's a tiny step to the police checking them on demand – and honestly I think most people would passively accept that step too.

                1. 4.2.1.2.1.2.1.1

                  I think I have been asked for my vaccine passport 3 times. It seems noone can be bothered checking anymore. And the minimal checking that was done was never enough to ensure it was valid for the person presenting it.

                  1. 4.2.1.2.1.2.1.1.1

                    My score is zero. I wasn't asked for it when I got my booster – I waved it at the woman on the desk & all she did was read my name off it.

                    I haven't been asked for it any of the times I've been to the public library (where they use a security guard). Yet on the news recently some other civic center showed up with them checking the vaccine passes at the entrance. Seems kinda random…

                  2. 4.2.1.2.1.2.1.1.2

                    Some corporate chains like cinemas and fast food seem pretty diligent. Most of my regular haunts sighted them once and left it like that.

                  3. 4.2.1.2.1.2.1.1.3

                    Five times for me over the past seven weeks – twice at the local cinema (they're diligent, including checking ID), and three times at eateries.

                    Nearly two years in to this on-going pandemic, much of the opposition to measures designed to safeguard public health is mystifying. A small minority (e.g. Plan B and Voices for Freedom) has been fighting consensus expert opinion every step of the way, despite a growing body of evidence that NZ's COVID health outcomes have been exceptionally good.

                    The contrarians must have their reasons, but dissent grounded on disinformation and baseless hypotheticals is worthless, imho. Vaccine passport requirements will come and go as needed.

                    Covid-19: Vaccine pass or negative test no longer required to leave Auckland [17 January 2022]

                    The U.S. Has Had 'Vaccine Passports' Before—And They Worked

    3. 4.3

      The language in your original comment was straight out of the 'dirty Jew' playbook. Invoking disgust and revulsion to dehumanise people you disagree with during an epidemic is playing with fire.

      And now claiming virtue because you're the kind of tough guy who 'stands up for women and children' is a most transparent ploy.

    4. 4.4

      You stated:

      "In my view these anti-vax protesters are the true "Deplorables". Far worse than the Gangs and lower down the picking order than a drunk pissing in a doorway at lunchtime. Far worse"

      This is in my view constitutes a hate message. Free speech and expression of an opinion within the legal framework are hall marks of a free society. And lets be clear, these people do not break the law by what their view is. (I don't agree with them but that is not subject to the issue). Obviously, under the left this is becoming increasingly an endangered concept. Anti vax people might be wrong, maybe not. Spring book tour protesters might have been wrong maybe not, gender assignment protests might be wrong maybe not. All these voices have a RIGHT in a free society to show their color. If free speech and assembly is to be forbidden because the opposing party does not like what they hear, than you have officially called it quits on democracy. I will not comment any further on that issue, thanks.

  5. 5

    Globalists vs fossil-fuel addicts:

    The 10 biggest US airlines have warned that the impending switch-on of 5G mobile phone services will cause "major disruption" to flights. They said the start of Verizon and AT&T 5G mobile phone services, planned for Wednesday, would cause a "completely avoidable economic calamity".

    Airlines fear C-band 5G signals will disrupt planes' navigation systems, particularly those used in bad weather. The warning was issued in a letter sent to US aviation authorities.

    The chief executives of American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and United Airlines were joined by others in saying: "Immediate intervention is needed to avoid significant operational disruption to air passengers, shippers, supply chain and delivery of needed medical supplies", including vaccine distribution.

    The BBC has seen the letter outlining their urgent concerns. It was sent to Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, as well as the head of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), the chair of the Federal Communications Commission and the director of the National Economic Council.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60036831

    Always fun when one establishment titan butts heads with another! Gates & Soros must be irritated: "These dinosaurs just don't get it! We already have them beat, they oughta just admit it. We'll have to get Biden to jawbone them."

    1. 5.1

      Al Jazeera has a bit more detail on the part of the aircraft avionics the industry is concerned will be disrupted by 5G signals – the altimeters.

      The new high-speed wireless service uses a segment of the radio spectrum, C-Band, that is close to that used by altimeters, which are devices that measure the height of aircraft above the ground. Altimeters are used to help pilots land when visibility is poor, and they link to other systems on planes.

      AT&T and Verizon say their equipment will not interfere with aircraft electronics, and that the technology is being safely used in many other countries.
      …
      This was a crisis that was years in the making. The airline industry and the FAA say that they have tried to raise alarms about potential interference from 5G C-Band, but the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) has ignored them.

      The telecom companies, the FCC and their supporters argue that C-Band and aircraft altimeters operate far enough apart on the radio spectrum to avoid interference. They also say that the aviation industry has known about C-Band technology for several years but did nothing to prepare — airlines chose not to upgrade altimeters that might be subject to interference, and the FAA failed to begin surveying equipment on planes until the last few weeks.

      https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2022/1/18/att-verizon-delay-some-5g-rollouts-after-airlines-warn-of-chaos
      …………….

      I sure wouldn’t be keen to fly in a passenger plane in the US until they’ve fully investigated and resolved this issue.

    2. 5.2

      This is frankly bizarre – not because of the technical issues, which have been standard telecommunication management fare since forever, nor for the very real safety concerns the airlines have.

      But that a major Federal agency is being seen to drop the ball on a matter that is their bread and butter core business, has to speak to systemic competency issues.

      1. 5.2.1

        I presume you’re referring to the FAA?

        I was kind of taken aback that the FCC’s attitude was that airlines could just upgrade any altimeters that might be subject to interference. I dunno what costs are involved in that for the airlines.

        Al Jazzera tv news interviewed some US aviation expert who pointed out that, while it’s claimed other countries are using 5G technology without any problems, EU countries (he specifically mentioned France, seeing everybody else is) and Canada, as examples, have very stringent restrictions on the use of 5G towers around airports. They’re not permitted to have 5G towers too close to airports.

        Seems like the FAA & FCC may operate in silos.

        1. 5.2.1.1

          I was kind of taken aback that the FCC’s attitude was that airlines could just upgrade any altimeters that might be subject to interference. I dunno what costs are involved in that for the airlines.

          Exactly. The general rule is that existing bandwidth users have priority rights and if any changes are going to be imposed on them, there will be ample time and resources made available to assist with any technical costs.

          Especially if the existing user is can demonstrate a safety critical profile as aviation altimeters obviously are.

          This just looks like the 5G telecommunications giants simply had more political clout and got their way over the public interest.

        2. 5.2.1.2

          Huawei has the best 5G technology.

          The U.K were ordered by the U.S.A not to use it for spurious reasons,but most Euro nations went ahead with it.

  7. 7

    From my understanding the modeling that was the basis for govt policy had a low VE of 50% from todays article we have after 6 months 10% protection, why then are what we are experiencing in case numbers so low compared to the forecast modeling ? From my work experiences in finance/treasury we review what we expected with actual to see why there was any differences and if so make needed changes to continuous improve .
    https://cpb-ap-se2.wpmucdn.com/blogs.auckland.ac.nz/dist/d/75/files/2017/01/modelling-to-support-a-future-covid-19-strategy.pdf
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/459790/over-1000-eligible-miq-workers-yet-to-get-covid-19-vaccine-booster-dose
    And after 9 weeks the efficiency for a booster drops to 50% what then winter is comming

  8. 8

    https://rdln.wordpress.com/2022/01/18/fsu-defend-public-service-advisor-censored-for-using-term-male-bodied/

    post from Redline about a public servant who attended a work place training run byInside Out, who were talking about diversity. This issue of lesbians and same sexed attraction came up at the end and the public servant asked should her lesbian sister be told she would have to consider sex with a male bodied person who was trans. The facilitator told her we don’t like terms like male bodied. The public servant then got a letter from the Deputy CE chastising her and telling her she offended the facilitator for using the term male bodied.

    1. 8.1

      Everything that clearly defines what is, is claimed to be offensive.

      Why? The conversation cannot be derailed if communication is clear.

      I read a good piece yesterday on this topic, in regards to women talking to gender ideologists: –

      The Guide To Dealing With/’Debating’ Transactivists – The Idge of Reason

      Narcissism is prevalent here. Same rules as always with narcissists. Do not get embroiled in discussion of their identity, their identity is not relevant to you and outside making clear you do not see yourself reflected in their identity it serves no function but to prevent discussion.

      1. All accusations are admissions. This is a very reliable compass. They will attribute their own motivations and actions to you because their identity is the only thing they can see and they can only see you as a reflection or threat to it. They are accusing themselves. Let them. Loudly.
      2. Take every word at face value. Do not get dragged into debating it. They say women’s consent doesn’t matter? Take it at face value. They say they have the right to redefine lesbian to include them and they have pushed women to assert their sexual boundaries by misgendering? They are telling you they cannot recognise consent, boundaries, or female sexuality. This is an admission. Not a debate.
      3. Do not treat a boundary as a negotiation. It is not/. You set the boundary and when they breach it, gaslighting, coercion, threats, you are receiving an admission of how far they will go to cross your boundaries. Take this at face value.
      4. Do not be derailed from key points or boundaries, and use all admissions made. They will try to derail from the thing that injures them. Usually the reality of their identity and the threat you pose to it. Stick to their behaviour. The words they have used. Do not get embroiled in discussion of their identity. A narcissists identity is always the hill they will die. Accept when they tell you they cannot separate their identity from your reality.
      5. You do not have to debate being a woman. You are one. Your biology, the inequality you lived, the knowledge you have that came from this. You do not need to debate whether you are a woman. Or their definition of woman. Outside being clear you do not see yourself reflected in them, you do not need to debate this. They do.
      6. When you are discussing systems and laws that evolved over 70 years to protect women and girls you do not need to centre their identity in that discussion. It is irrelevant to that discussion. Those systems were fought for and created by women you dont know, they did that so you dont have to. You do not need to have arguments that are already done and are reflected in equality legislation.
      7. Do not have arguments you dont need to have. It is ridiculous to use failure to validate males as an insult. It is ridiculous to treat ‘you didnt think of males when you thought about inequality so you are a TERF’ as valid. You dont need to defend the right of women to self assembly without male supervision, it is yours already, they need to explain why they think it should end. If hearing about their male biology is offensive, that is not your fault. They are male. That cannot be altered. You are not required to repeat things you know to be untrue because of the threat of violence and coercion. You are not required to be ‘inclusive’ and ‘nice’ at a cost of your own safety and rights. EVER.
      8. Do not defend yourself from accusations which are not accusations. It is not an accusation or a crime to refuse to ignore abusive behaviour, it is not an accusation that you didnt orbit a males identity and validate him.
      9. Misgendering and transphobia are insults designed to give men the right to abuse women and claim they are being oppressed. A nonsense. Stick to literal meanings, neither of this things is violent, neither metaphorical or literal and neither of these things warrant a violent response.
      10. Remember what you are responsible for. You are not responsible for managing their well being, not responsible for their threats of violence, not responsible for harm they do themselves or threaten to do themselves to control a situation. You are entitled to boundaries, to define yourself, and anyone threatened by this is telling you something.
      11. Remember abusive behaviour is well understood. It is always a problem. It is legally and socially unacceptable to subordinate women with abusive behaviour. Nothing in the word trans changes this and any trans women suggesting it does is telling you ‘she’ is an abusive male.
      1. 8.1.1

        Thanks Molly, that's useful.

        I guess that is what the public servant did. She used factual statements like male bodied. Still got the letter from the Deputy CE. Does this manager not realize how outrageous this is.

        I don't understand why public servants need to receive this "training". Trans people make up .8% of the population. Gender Ideology is a belief system.

        If called a bigot it is best not to respond or defend yourself. Calling someone a bigot in this context is merely a strategy do scare people into not speaking up.

        Over xmas caught up with a lot of friends and family. I made a point of raising gender ideolgy and self id. All of these people were Labour and Green voters. All disagreed with what is going on with the imposition of gender ideology on others. None of these people are bigots. As one of these people said to me (he is a personal trainor) that he worked with women and also had a transwoman client. The trans client was esily able to lift weights that were simply not possible for the fitest of women.

  9. 9

    Interesting news:

    https://www.nme.com/news/tv/bbc-licence-fee-abolished-2027-cost-frozen-next-two-years-3138982

    I'm in two minds about this, the BBC created some of the greatest shows on TV, timeless shows, dramas, comedies, documentaries

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:BBC_television_sitcoms

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:BBC_television_dramas

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Play_for_Today

    It was a great idea, tv shows paid for by the people, written and produced for the people.

    Then wokeness took over.

    If the BBC continued to make programming for all people then the licencing fee would be justified but they don't so soon they'll have to stand on their own feet (unless Labour get back in and change it)

    However they really are shooting themselves in the foot, this is a good article explaining why:

    https://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/jodie-whittaker-leaving-wont-fix-doctor-who-94646.htm

    The reason its a problem is just how much money the BBC made from merchandising and now its virtually gone.

    However there is a glimmer of hope:

    https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-bad-wolf-sony-newsupdate/

    'Sony Pictures Television has officially bought Bad Wolf, the company set to produce Doctor Who series 14.'

    'Russell T Davies, who will return as showrunner for Doctor Who’s 60th year, will be enlisting the help of Bad Wolf to produce the next season, set to air on BBC One in 2023 with a brand new Doctor.'

    The rollback of woke programming is slowly happening, hopefully not too many more franchises will be ruined and some might even be able to be saved

    1. 9.1

      "then wokeness took over"

      Get it right Pukish.

      In fact Netflix Amazon and Disney took over while the Tory government of the last 12 years starved the BBC.

      1. 9.1.1

        Close.

        Disney is to blame for a lot of bad entertainment of late.

        But Netflix and Amazon Prime do have some good stuff on them (they also have things like Cuties just to balance it out.

        But the BBCs demise is one of their own making.

        https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/bbc-discrimination-row-advertising-job-ethnic-monorities-b941600.html

        The broadcaster is advertising a one-year, £17,810 trainee production management assistant role with the position “only open to black, Asian and ethnically diverse candidates”.

        Positive discrimination is unlawful under the Equality Act 2010 but “positive action” is permitted for trainee and internship roles in areas where there is under-representation.

        https://deadline.com/2020/11/bbc-studios-diversity-target-1234623162/

        'BBC Studios has introduced an “inclusion rider” for all new productions, which will mean that all new productions have to meet a 20% diversity target.

        'On all new BBC and third-party shows, the Doctor Who and Top Gear producer will ensure that a fifth of on-screen talent and production teams come from a BAME – Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic – background, have lived experience of a disability, or are from a low-income background.'

        'There will also be an additional commitment to having at least one senior role on scripted and unscripted production teams being appointed from one of these three backgrounds.'

          1. 9.1.1.1.1

            I find it "woke" that only jewish people can act as jewish characters, or black as blacks, or white as whites etc … so you're a woke PR, ha! You're welcome. & yes, "woke" pretty much means whatever you want it to mean, to the point of pointlessness.

            1. 9.1.1.1.1.1

              Thats fine. You're entitled to your opinion and thats ok. You're opinion is wrong, as long as you realise that its all good.

          2. 9.1.1.1.2

            I don't think it's that important in some cases, especially in well known stories. (eg. Jesus Christ is most often portrayed as a pale skinned European, despite being from the Middle East, it hasn't disrupted the narrative.)

            I also enjoyed the recent reworking of David Copperfield, which I have read numerous times, and watch a couple of other adaptations.

            https://youtu.be/xXh53I-Sdsk

            The main actor's personal ethnicity was not used to disrupt the storyline based still in Victorian England, he just played the part. If I want to revisit the other adaptations I can, but this gave me another version to enjoy of an old favourite.
            Really, the writing and humour were good.

            1. 9.1.1.1.2.1

              I admit to preferring the actor looks somewhat like the character they're portraying.

              I'm not always hard and fast about the rule, for instance I thought Michael Clarke Duncan was a very good Kingpin (untill Vincent D'Onofrio came along…) but I'm against changing the ethnicity unless its for a specific reason especially when its an historical figure

              Now what would happen if you changed other ethnicities around, for example the new Rosa Parks:

              https://cdn.businessinsider.nl/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/503bbf901dcea2b712cc06963669982ba1648a52-800×400.jpg

              1. 9.1.1.1.2.1.1

                (Link doesn't work for me)

                But I'm more of the view it depends on the quality of writing and context. Given the African American race struggles are integral to Rosa Parks’ story. it's hard to see how they will make a change there successfully.

                West Side Story works as a Romeo and Juliet retelling because it retained the tribalism, romance and tragedy. That story can be retold in almost any culture and timeframe and still be recognisable.

                1. 9.1.1.1.2.1.1.1

                  (It was a picture of Fan BingBing, google her if you like)

                  Thats the issue I have.

                  Its 'ok' to have a black actress play a white, historically important person but you try that with other ethnicities and see how long before you're cancelled

                  It used to be that having white actors play diverse characters was 'ok' and then the film makers, eventually, worked out its not a good idea.

                  By the way bad luck if you're red head, they're not popular at the moment:

                  https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/12/15/every-single-redheaded-comic-book-character-that-has-been-race-swapped/

                  1. 9.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1

                    "Its 'ok' to have a black actress play a white, historically important person but you try that with other ethnicities and see how long before you're cancelled"

                    For me it depends on the relevance to the story being told. The story of Rosa Parks is about the African American experience, so it'd hard to see how that would work.

                    Copperfield was about class and poverty, so its a tale replicated in many cultures.

                    (Don't understand the aversion to redheads myself, my youngest is one.)

                    1. 9.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1

                      (I have a thing for red heads and I blame Megan Follows)

                      Copperfield could work sure but Anne Boleyn?

                      Doesn't it seem like being the Queen of England in the 1500s would need a white actress?

                      If they wanted to do that because 'representation' then surely they just could have the story set in the 'near future' and base it on the history instead?

                      I don't want to keep going back to Orwell but:

                      'Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.'

                      History, to me anyway, should be as accurate as possible and the BBC have been messing around with history for quite sometime now:

                    2. 9.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.2

                      @PR. Didn't pick you for an Anne fan, but kudos for that.

                      "Doesn't it seem like being the Queen of England in the 1500s would need a white actress?"

                      If we were going for authenticity above all else, but we are being told a story. I'd watch for the storytelling, the characters and the acting. For me, I don't think it would influence my enjoyment one way or the other. I can understand how it would for others, though..

                      History, to me anyway, should be as accurate as possible and the BBC have been messing around with history for quite sometime now:"
                      As I consider much of history as persistent stories rather than facts, I agree on the aim of accuracy. But I consider such works as shown to be entertainment not reenactments. We only have to compare recent personal histories with other family members to see hoe quickly stories diverge.

                    3. 9.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.3

                      I guess for me the issue is the further away the actor is from the character the quicker it takes me out of the story.

                      Meryl Streep might be the greatest actor ever but I don't want to see her in drag playing Nelson Mandela

                  2. 9.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.2

                    No hard and fast rules, but a known historical person imo best played by someone of the correct ethnicity. Otherwise what is the purpose .eg. with the black Anne Boylyn. I think I would find it would get in the way of the story.

                    1. 9.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.2.1

                      White washing in movies and tv programs was and is bad, black washing is just as bad

                      What makes it worse is the suggestion that black people don't have any interesting stories of their own so the only way to get black people in is to swop them with well known white characters

                      Are there really no interesting stories from Africa to be told?

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansa_Musa

                      How about Asia?

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saragarhi

                      Instead of Anne Boleynwhy not one of these:

                      https://www.pulse.ng/bi/lifestyle/7-most-powerful-african-queens-in-history-you-need-to-know/dwhncf5

            1. 9.1.1.1.3.1

              For sure (with Clarkson) but it was, like Dr Who, a cash cow, international, merchandising hit that the BBC let go

              While its a good thing the BBC is going to fall it does make me sad…Boys From The Blackstuff, Blackadder, Auf Wiedersehen Pet, The Young Ones, Dr Who…

              All fantastic programs, (mostly) family viewing and we're unlikely to see their likes again

              Is that progress?

              1. 9.1.1.1.3.1.1

                The BBC had a hard-earned reputation for quality, both in terms of news and drama. It was good enough that Al Jazeera took it as a model. America rarely reaches comparable production values.

                No doubt the destruction is a favour to Rupert – the fool behind much of the trouble in the world.

                1. 9.1.1.1.3.1.1.1

                  It had a reputation but it gave up that reputation and for what exactly, better programs?

                  It had quality programming (maybe even the best) then it gave it up and it only has itself to blame

                  1. 9.1.1.1.3.1.1.1.1

                    It didn't entirely give it up – its professionalism constantly irked public embarrassments like Boris Johnson, who, having no self-awareness of his mediocrity, resented it.

                    Of the self-inflicted wounds, a pious but entirely insincere pretense of woke virtue was costly, but should not have been fatal. Dr Who could be revived – just not by the clowns that destroyed it. Top Gear not so much.

  11. 11

    Media law seems to be a growing industry – and a bit like Gunfight at the OK Corral, with guns replaced by lawyers.

    Broadcaster Tova O'Brien is taking her employer Discovery NZ to the Employment Relations Authority today in an eleventh hour legal bid to escape a three-month restraint of trade clause. At stakes is her high-profile launch of a new MediaWorks radio breakfast show – the date hasn't been publicly confirmed, but is tipped for this month.

    That would steal the thunder from the return of TV3's new-look AM Show, which isn't expected back on air until February with its new line-up led by Melissa Chan-Green and Ryan Bridge.

    MediaWorks boss Cam Wallace announced in November last year that Magic Talk would be mothballed and replaced with Today FM under the leadership of talk radio veteran Dallas Gurney – and proceeded to unveil a string of high profile hires from Discovery. MediaWorks announced O'Brien, Duncan Garner, Mark Richardson, Lloyd Burr and Wilhelmina Shrimpton would all host shows on the new radio station.

    Contractual restraint of trade clauses can be hard to uphold… Discovery may have an uphill battle convincing the Employment Relations Authority that O'Brien, in hosting a radio show, will be doing a similar job to that of a television political editor.

    You'd think the ERA would be likely to spot the difference, eh? Depends how many bureaucrats are on board perhaps. The logic that an elephant & a mouse both have four legs so can be put in the same category is always tempting.

    And erstwhile broadcaster Sean Plunket has made restraint of trade battles his trademark, fighting his first one on his departure from TV3 to Radio NZ in 1996, to host Morning Report. And then he took an unsuccessful Employment Relations Authority case against Radio NZ in 2009, when the public broadcaster tried to stop him writing a monthly column for the magazine Metro.

    Plunket left a talkback role at Magic Talk a year ago, after a string of broadcasting standards complaints. He is expected to launch his own streaming radio channel late next month, featuring fellow hosts Leanne Malcolm, Martin Devlin and Michael Laws, which he says is privately bankrolled by "patriots". And he too will return to the breakfast slot, with an eponymous show named Plunket Uncancelled.
    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/tova-obrien-goes-to-court-in-radio-v-tv-employment-tussle

    Best to call the channel Patriots Uncancelled then…

    1. 11.1

      This happens alot at the exec level where they take gardening leave and wait for the date as per their contracted notice period.

      No surprise tova, Sean etc challenge it as being off air must be such a handicap in life for them they need to end it asap.

  12. 12

    Consider the immense scrutiny and condemnation the US has rightfully received over the Julian Assange affair. Now compare with the virtual silence on this:

    The Safeguard Defenders report detailed 62 returns from Australia, the US, Canada, South-East Asia, the Middle East and elsewhere.

    It argues the vast majority of the thousands of returns have been involuntary — "non-traditional, often illegal, means of forcing someone to return to China against their will, most often to face certain imprisonment".

    Observers say Chinese courts have a conviction rate of more than 99.9 per cent.

    "There is the possibility that there are some corrupt officials, but the main problem is under China's legal system, it is utterly untrustworthy," Chen Yen-ting, the Taiwan-based Safeguard Defenders researcher who wrote the report, told the ABC.

    A remarkable double standard no?

    1. 12.1

      A very biased story,part of the U.S/Taiwan demonise China narrative.

      Heres a clue…'It cites the case of Dong Feng, a resident of the Melbourne suburb of Glen Waverley who was approached by Chinese police officers in 2014 over alleged bribery in China.

      We have seen here in NZ –Chinese-Canadian businessman Xiao Hua Gong cuts record-breaking $70m deal with New Zealand police over frozen assets – NZ Herald

      Then theres Bill Wiu and others.

      China takes a dim view of those who embezzle funds and hide out in the West.

      Literally 100's flee with ill gotten gains.

      The West have extradition treaties but alot of fraudsters are not persued….the Gold Coast is full of NZ cons.

      1. 12.1.1

        And yes I do understand anything that casts a less than ideal light on the CCP is of course biased. I well understand that for the authoritarian left any Court system with a 99.9% conviction rate is inherently wonderful. /sarc

        1. 12.1.1.1

          You should read Conrad Blacks (ex Media mogul)assessment of the U.S justice system.

          From memory the conviction rate was 95%.

          I'm all in favour of going hard on white collar crime.

          Its almost a rite of passage in the West…looking at the rap sheet of…Wall St.

          1. 12.1.1.1.1

            Rather than rely on one source that gives the answer you want, how about some basic data from wikipedia?

            In 2018, the Bureau of Justice Statistics reported that among defendants charged with a felony, 68% were convicted (59% of a felony and the remainder of a misdemeanor) with felony conviction rates highest for defendants originally charged with motor vehicle theft (74%), driving-related offenses (73%), murder (70%), burglary (69%), and drug trafficking (67%); and lowest for defendants originally charged with assault (45%).

            Still I am impressed at your vigorous efforts to divert from the original point.

            1. 12.1.1.1.1.1

              from Wiki…

              Israel[edit]

              The conviction rate in Israel is around 93%.[when?] Around 72% of trials end with a conviction on some charges and acquittal on others, while around 22% end with a conviction on all charges. These statistics do not include plea bargains and cases where the charges are withdrawn, which make up the vast majority of criminal cases.[7]

              Japan[edit]

              The conviction rate is 99.3%. By only stating this high conviction rate it is often misunderstood as too high—however, this high conviction rate drops significantly when accounting for the fact that Japanese prosecutors drop roughly half the cases they are given. If measured in the same way, the United States' conviction rate would be 99.8%.[8][9][1

              1. 12.1.1.1.1.1.1

                Compare this now with China. All the evidence is that once the police arrest you in that country – you are entirely at the mercy of the system. Even if you do have a lawyer, the chances of the case being dropped or a deal being made are close to zero. This is a widely recognised reality.

                While in most other nations, usually it's the cases that stand a good chance of a conviction that reach the Courts. And even then there is a robust appeals process. And indeed it's the peculiar circumstances of the Assange case where due to 'national security concerns' these conditions do not apply that lie at the heart of the matter.

                1. 12.1.1.1.1.1.1.1

                  Do you really think the U.S cares less about the conviction rate in China?

                  Tracking down white collar criminals and holding them to account is a good thing imo.

    1. 14.1

      During pandemics parameters and resource usage can change quickly, requiring a pivot in terms of response.

      If an assurance was given, perhaps it should not have been. Individuals still should understand there remained an element of risk.

      However, if that assurance was quantified with conditions, the conditions needed to be noted as well.

    2. 14.2

      Do you know how many people per day are turning up at the border with covid-19? Today it was 56 – that means 56 rooms need to be found in quarantine to house those people and their room mates. That's almost 800 rooms tied up every fortnight for roughly a fortnight. A typical up-scale hotel in the States has, on average, 330 rooms.

      It is not the govt's fault that all these people who have supposedly tested negative are coming back infectious and the govt has to make room for them with limited available resources e.g. health care workers.

      Self-isolating at home has proven to be unmanageable because people don't do as they are told.

      1. 14.2.1

        Absolutely right. We moan about being a dumping ground for 501s yet every day numbers arrive with Covid. No doubt including some who have grizzled about their right to 'come home'.

        If provision were to be made right now, today, to take all those coming back, and let them come now we'd need resources to accept about 25,000 people. Clearly some think that should happen.

        Can't provide enough MIQ? Self-isolation at home because people can be trusted? Rubbish, they can't be. And so we blame the government acting on people not being able to do the right thing. If it was open slather to get in and people trusted to do the right thing the virus would sweep the country

    3. 14.3

      It is in some cases tragic but overseas residents have been asked 2 years ago to come home if they want to but many have chosen not to. It was very well documented what the consequences are under a worldwide pandemic with MIQ places not unlimitless available. To now say that they have been made stateless is absolutely not true. They still have their NZ passport, no? But they have made choices to suit their wanting to have the job/income, scenery, culture etc. in an other country and now find that the economic and general circumstances have profoundly changed over these 2 years. Of cause they have all the right and will be welcome but they also have to now abide by the rules governed by infection not crossing into the population and resources this country can afford. This is a state of 5 million people who have to pay for their safe return to NZ. So given that the population size of Sydney has to find the tax funds, its going pretty well.

  15. 15

    Having been obliged to admit that Luxon's off the hook & doesn't need to go in to bat for hamsters in HK, I'll give him a wee pat on the back for a nuanced stance here:

    The proposed Three Waters reforms are another area where he’s been very critical of the Government, which is due to make a final decision this year. He instead supports tailored solutions where there are problems in water management, a national regulator (as per the Government’s plans), and local control and solutions in the three waters space.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300498966/te-reo-skills-on-the-list-for-nationals-christopher-luxon-in-busy-2022

    Looks like the authority of the regulator could be the point of difference he's aiming for. However defaulting to "local control and solutions" is merely conservatism. Hasn't worked in too many places. He's vulnerable there.

    1. 15.1

      Luxon said that he supports tailored solutions where there are problems in water management.

      Yet he doesn't support 'creeping centralisation' so the questions that come to my mind are how many problems are there in water management, and who will 'tailor' the solutions?

      Is he envisaging a local authority by local authority approach where an individual authority has problems with water quality, and how many would there be with how many individual solutions? How hard for that to be effectively managed by both central and local government?

      Or, is he advocating a tailored solution to each particular problem for all local authorities? For example, solutions for faecal contamination, for urban and rural runoff, water borne diseases, silting, forestry slash and waste. If it's a solution for each identified problem over the entire country, how does he get 'local input and influence' involved?

      Is this just another slow and unwieldy bureaucratic 'solution' to a set of problems requiring faster action than that wanted by reluctant and poorly resourced local authorities with oversight of large but sparely populated areas like Marlborough of the West Coast, for example?

      Will those opposed, for sector interests for example. be basically left to find slow and unsatisfactory solutions?

      1. 15.1.1

        So many questions. We won't know, probably, until the select committee thrashes out a consensus on whatever legislation Labour finalises. It would be helpful if all those horrified by looming centralisation were to get over complaining & start to come up with feasible alternatives instead…

        1. 15.1.1.1

          I guess my point was that it is easy to criticise, and to finger solutions, but there is no evidence of thinking through the sticking points to a viable outcome in his interview. Maybe that will come later, and he is on the stump around the country where I hope to hear him, being a political junkie…..

  16. 16

    In the last 3 days many credible, multi-sourced links have been provided here to inform people about the behaviour of protesters at vaccination clinics. Despite that – and the fact that it takes only a few seconds of searching to find them – there still seems to be some reluctance to acknowledge what is happening. Whether that is genuine ignorance or wilful denial, I don't know.

    So here is a selection of eyewitness accounts from this week (since Monday, when children became eligible – they are the targets for the protesters now).

    I'm not going to do this every day, because it's a truism of online debates that life is wasted pointing out that 2 +2 = 4, when somebody else has a link to Liz Gunn or Joe Rogan saying 2 +2 =5, and nothing will ever change their closed minds. That's their choice.

    But now nobody can say they didn't know, or it didn't happen. So please stop it.

    This is only a small selection, you've all got the internet if you want more. Note that I have not relied on "random internet bot" but doctors, councillors, people with names who cannot hide.

    (it will be spread over several comments, bear with me)

    Emma Espiner, a doctor –

    https://twitter.com/emmawehipeihana/status/1482928211147501569

    A reply: [unlinked quote deleted]

    That was the North Shore. Also in Auckland, Westgate –

    Nathan Rarere (broadcaster)

    https://twitter.com/oldmannato/status/1483263281683116032

    Also Westgate, Darien Fenton (ex-MP, union)

    https://twitter.com/DarienFenton/status/1483217697291005952

    Sign saying "Jacinda is a child murderer". At the place where children go. Lovely people, who only want "freedom", right?

    1. 16.1

      Some examples from the media: Herald and Newshub.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-parents-shocked-by-anti-vaccine-protesters/WFFZVRVKS22UEFB4YSDYMYIQEQ/

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-labour-party-auckland-mp-shanan-halbert-harassed-getting-vaccination/U3KEW3TWJKFLTMNGI24JHHPUHA/

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/01/coronavirus-terrifying-voices-for-freedom-protesters-descend-on-vaccine-centre-but-healthcare-workers-inside-ease-children-s-fears.html

    3. 16.3

      mod note: I've deleted the unlinked text. Find me the link to the actual tweet and I'll insert it back into your comment.

      btw, don't use the tags for tweets, just paste the tweet's URL into the comment box and it will embed without mistakes (the one I fixed).

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