Open Mike 14/10/2017

Written By: notices and features - Date published: - 117 comments
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117 comments on “Open Mike 14/10/2017”

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  1. 1

    I know it sounds bad but I’m enjoying having no Govt as it’s not as awful as I’m used to.
    The downside is while the evil is not being rammed through (under urgency) no good can happen.
    I’ll enjoy it while it lasts.

    1. 1.1

      You and me both – Her.

      I expecially like the free time to think of other things now as we dont have National ‘Spindoctors’ ramming stuff down our ‘mind’ every time they float another stupid idea – or tell us what’s good for us and to be thankful of them.

      They were just to bloody blatent and bossy, and way to keen on propadanda and brainwashing, but it failed to work.

        1. 2.2.1.1

          Yep, probably one of the better articles they’ve had on the Herald lately.

          If they had articles of this quality more regularly I’d be sorely tempted to go out and buy a copy at the moment it’s all a bit left wing for me.

          1. 2.2.2.1.1

            Nick
            You miss the point I think. We are not talking about little girls, so don’t lay on the sarcasm. Being an annoying creep using his position of authority
            is what was being criticised.

      3. 2.2.3

        “solid platinum taps are a classy touch”
        Yes totally – along with the gold-plated a*se-wipes – so many of whom one encounters online.

      4. 2.2.4

        You mean classy, as in the life and times of the nouveau riche? Do you know if Paula has her own guest room?

    3. 2.3

      To answeryour question, clearly you give a fuck to have come here and given the story oxygen, and greater coverage though your link.

      1. 2.3.1

        @ 2.3 Enough is Enough … True, you have a point there. But I saw red as soon as I viewed the headline. I didn’t bother reading the article, because to me I considered the headline alone tabloid trash. Definitely not worthy of being news, indicating to me the low level NZ media has really sunk to.

        3. 2.3.1.3

          Good on you mary a – good to know what is happening out there with pollies past and present, and good to not have to read it oneself so don’t bother about grumps and gripes.

    4. 2.4

      This is the property bought for $5 million in 2005 and sold 12 years later for $20 million- a profit of $1.2 million per annum, on top of the retention of 500 sq m. for the new house.

      Meanwhile, the Salvation Army ran a fund raising day for the homeless. It quoted the figure of 1:100 New Zealanders who are inadequately housed.

      Another legacy of the 2008-17 National government.

      Are you listening, please, Winston?

  3. 3

    Good to see police reevaluating how to stop locking up mentally ill people. Maybe more of an issue in the cities – here in the country there is good coordination between police and crisis mental health as far as i can tell. Locking people up who are suffering in this way is not the answer imo.

    Can’t link to Herald article sorry.

  4. 4

    Always a tweet.

    Thank you to the LGBT community! I will fight for you while Hillary brings in more people that will threaten your freedoms and beliefs.— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) June 14, 2016

    Shortly before Donald Trump took the podium at the annual Values Voter Summit, attendees received a pamphlet calling homosexuality a “public health crisis”.

    The pamphlet, distributed by the anti-LGBTQ activist organisation MassResistance, claims the “sexual revolution” and the “mainstreaming of homosexuality” have created a public health crisis in America.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-speech-values-voter-summit-massresistance-anti-lgbtq-pamphlet-homosexuality-health-hazard-a7999501.html

  6. 6

    Yes we should all remember it was that the Russians in 1940 did not capitulate to the Germans that saved us all from loosing the war.

    As the ‘eastern front’ nazi invasion of Russia action caused Germany to loose most of its military might and later loose the war. Russia was then alied to us all.

    So why do they treat the Russians so badly now??

    2. 6.2

      Yes we should all remember it was that the Russians in 1940 did not capitulate to the Germans that saved us all from loosing the war.

      Yeah, because in 1940 the Russians were way too busy, occupying Poland and invading Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, as part of their deal with their Nazi besties to divvy up Europe.

      /

      1. 6.2.1

        That is a fact, but it is also a fact that the Russians destroyed the power of the German army as an offensive fighting force, thereby saving Europe from fascism.

        1. 6.2.1.1

          Facts and enormity of size of losses, would arouse anxiety and stress and
          fight or flight response in Russian authority I think and survival and protection
          would lead to all sorts of behaviour that would stated coldly now in present conditions sound insupportable.

          Google:
          How many Russian soldiers were killed in ww2?
          America would lose slightly more than 400,000 soldiers (killed or missing) and almost no civilians during World War II and the USSR, depending on which historian you believe, would lose at least 11,000,000 soldiers (killed and missing) as well as somewhere between 7,000,000 and 20,000,000 million of its civilian …
          Eisenhower Institute at Gettysburg College – WWII Soviet Experience
          http://www.eisenhowerinstitute.org/about/living_history/wwii_soviet_experience.dot

          and
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

          The facts and images lead me to believe that war is a no-win project!

        2. 6.2.1.2

          Though,had the Germans decided to push straight to Moscow and not waste time going into the Ukraine, things may have been different. The Wehrmact needed to take the Soviet capital before winter, as they were not equipped for a winter war.

          1. 6.2.1.2.1

            Russia historically often had more than one capital – it’s not clear that the Soviet Union would’ve collapsed even if it had fallen. The precedent of the failed French invasion would have been psychologically important – taking Moscow didn’t win the war for Napoleon, perhaps it wouldn’t have for Hitler.

            1. 6.2.1.2.1.1

              Apparently Stalin was basically not going to leave Moscow – he was all in.

              Dunno how true that is, but it’s an interesting question as to whether the Soviet Union would have survived losing both Moscow and Stalin together.

        3. 6.2.1.3

          That is a fact, but it is also a fact that the Russians destroyed the power of the German army as an offensive fighting force, thereby saving Europe from fascism.

          It’s also a fact that the Wehrmacht hugely damaged the Red Army, thereby saving Europe from communism. I don’t think either fact warrants a vote of thanks.

        1. 6.2.2.1

          Agreed, although the USSR figures are pretty suspect – the regime had a vested interest in booking up as many as possible of its own victims to German military action, so there’s no telling what the actual figure is.

          1. 6.2.2.2.1

            joe90
            Did you say that you were Polish-connected in one of your comments?
            I was looking at the Wikipedia list and the number of civilian kilings in uprisings and put-downs was huge. And so many killed in some countries.

            I wonder will the EU go down if Britain exits? And would old enmities flair again? If thy could have the EU amended, with less bureaucracy and some semblance of border control Europe could continue to put up with each other and keep the bogeymen and women from gaining strength.

    3. 6.3

      Yes we should all remember it was that the Russians in 1940 did not capitulate to the Germans that saved us all from loosing the war.

      We should all remember something you just made up? The Reich and the Soviet Union were effectively allies in 1940, having made an agreement in 1939 to divide Europe up between them. Europe is certainly very lucky there was a falling-out among the thieves, but there are no Russians to thank for that.

  7. 7

    Anyone got the link to Bryce Edwars follow up article?

    Lynn? Did he contact you?

    ” A follow-up column will look at signs of a Labour-NZ government. “

    1. 7.1

      if that gets put up a few here will have to eat some humble pie after the outrage at his one the day before on the nats chances, should be funny

  8. 8

    Come on Winston, don’t keep us hanging on .. we might lose interest in democracy.

    [Sade sings ‘Smooth Operator’ in the background …]

    1. 9.1

      Probably if it had gone off it would have made the news as terrorism – it certainly fits the criteria imo.

      I notice at the bottom of the article a link to a Greenwald article declaring the word terrorism a meaningless propaganda term.

      1. 9.1.1

        Correct he if I’m wrong, but you still take your shoes off at USA airports, becasue of a failed bomber.

        I like the Greenwald piece too.

        1. 9.1.1.1

          I never travel because I can’t afford to offset the carbon and I’d never go to the states if I did, but I hear you have to hand over all sorts of personal grooming items that have never ever been used in a terrorist attack when going through airports.

          Anyway good they caught him because that device would have destroyed a lot of people if it had gone off as planned.

      1. 9.2.1

        I’m going to call BS on your google search there Andre. The bulk of the reporting was local and affiliates. Not very much from the MSM.

        Edit: or like the MSM CBS piece, hidden under the crime section.

        1. 9.2.1.1

          USA Today, Fox News, CBS, NPR are all national. And that’s just the first page of results. While The Intercept is particularly skilled at feeding grievance complexes, they are just as prone to misrepresentation for their own ends as anyone else. Maybe even more so.

          1. 9.2.1.1.1

            Like I said at start Andre, if you actually took the time to read, white terrorism, not a simple crime, but terrorism. That was my criticism of your links as well. Have a look at the pages, joe90 did a good job about my point as well.

            So are you happy to push a white supremacist agenda?

            1. 9.2.1.1.1.1

              If anyone wants a more balanced look at why this incident received the coverage it did, here’s a couple to start with.

              http://www.snopes.com/2017/10/12/asheville-airport-bomb-attempted/

              http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/10/13/557629826/suspect-in-would-be-airport-bombing-nabbed-with-help-from-rei

              Apart from vague references to wanting to start a war, it’s unclear so far if there was any religious or political motive driving Estes. Which would reasonably account for a responsible newsroom being reluctant to call it terrorism. Although if he just wanted random warfare, there would be a case for describing him as an anarchist terrorist.

                1. 9.2.1.1.1.1.1.1

                  I’m pretty sure this little tidbit was in at least one of the links further up, but here it is again anyway:

                  “Though he was described as being white in police press releases while they were searching for him, online jail records list his ethnicity as being a Native American.”

                  http://heavy.com/news/2017/10/michael-christopher-estes-asheville-airport-bomber-suspect/

                  Given that, it seems to me there would be a lot more grounds for complaint about racism and white privilege if he had been called a terrorist.

                    1. 9.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1

                      This happened in the USA – where a all to common, and usual approach to politics, is to define people by their skin colour. Do I agree with that approach, no I don’t.

                      But in the context of where this happen, and what they are reporting, skin colour is relevant. My point simply. The MSM media did not cover this as a raging front page news story about terrorism. Even when the parameters of political motivate violence were made public. Why? As I said, the colour of his skin has major impact, and the fact he is not a Muslim is another major factor.

          1. 9.2.1.2.1

            joe90 did you look at any of you links and where they came up within their own services?

            Obviously not…

            And as I said THIS WAS AN ACT OF TERRORISM!!! not a crime for the crime pages.

            Should I surmise from your meh, you happy pushing a racist agenda?

              1. 9.2.1.2.1.1.1

                I’m not accusing him of anything, I’m just saying meh is open for interpretation.

                He is big enough and ugly enough to respond in more than one word.

                  1. 9.2.1.2.1.1.1.1.1

                    I was talking about all three links. Have a look what section they are in.

                    My point is simple. If your white and terrorist you get a free pass. If saying that offends you or is rouge – then I’m rogue.

                    1. 9.2.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1

                      My interest in indigenous rights made this quite clear – i used to reguarily post about under reported struggles and the differing rights some people get including being marginalised by the state and media via the descriptor terrorist.

                      My only issue with you raising this issue is your racist tag – it’s stupid.

                    3. 9.2.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.3

                      No, your accusations that others are racist because they disputed your specific assertion is stupid. Note I’m not saying you are stupid, I’m not saying racism is stupid, I’m saying what you wrote is stupid. I am not personally attacking you. I am talking about what you wrote not you as a person – whew, hope that ensures no misunderstanding.

                    4. 9.2.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.4

                      This is being swept under the carpet. Just wait till another Muslim explodes a bomb or what ever. The tirade will begin within minutes. We will get wall to wall coverage for days.

                      The virtual opposite happens if the person is white (US definition – not mine), and not a Muslim. Almost deathly quite, or a very quick spin in the 24 hour news cycle, and it’s gone.

                      Remember this guy? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/19/death-ray-plot-muslims-obama-glendon-scott-crawford-new-york

                      One day in the news, then out. Never to be spoken of again.

                      How long will this last in the news cycle? This is a guy who tried to kill hundreds of people to start a war.

                    5. 9.2.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.5

                      Didn’t the news story (what you reckoned never existed due to “no coverage”) say the latest guy put explosives in a fruit preserving jar and left it outside the terminal? Yeah, lethal, but not exactly going to “kill hundreds of people”, is it. It’s a dick, with no evidence of anyone willing to fight his “war” alongside him, making a bomb that he’s now claiming wasn’t even set to go off.

                      And your dirty bomb guy was sentenced to 30 years for planning a bomb that the FBI built for him. Not the first time they’ve done that, if I recall correctly, and toes the line between entrapment and giving the suspect enough rope to warrant serious charges. But in that specific case I wouldn’t expect to hear anything for, oh, 25 years or so.

                      Lots of stories about the white guy who actually shot hundreds of people, though. There’s a clue for ye.

                    6. 9.2.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.6

                      So terrorist bombs are OK now if they don’t kill to many people McFlock?

                      Hard to find your point when you keep changing what it means to be a terrorist.

                      Am I right in thinking political motivation is no longer on the table, as a definition of terrorist, even for a lone wolf?

                      So lets be clear you are say terrorism needs to not only cause terror, but they must not act alone, and must not be a dickhead? Is that right?

    3. 9.3

      World news –
      The climate change that the vulnerable can do nothing to alter and maybe people can limit it to bearable but for what or whom?
      http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/341564/penguin-chicks-starve-in-catastrophic-antarctic-season

      All but two Adelie penguin chicks have starved to death in their east Antarctic colony, in a breeding season described as “catastrophic” by experts….
      Adelie penguins are the most southerly breeding bird in the world
      Photo: Cultura/Brett Phibbs
      Unusually high amounts of ice late in the season meant adults had to travel further for food.
      It is the second bad season in five years after no chicks survived in 2015.

      Conservation groups are calling for urgent action on a new marine protection area in the east Antarctic to protect the colony of about 36,000.

      Perhaps some coming new parents might like to give their wee girl the name Adele, which would be very meaningful in the light of the above.

      and
      Trump – nuclear power, people in other countries not renegging on nuclear deal,
      big thumbs down on facing reality and caring.
      http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/341539/trump-strikes-blow-against-iran-nuclear-deal
      Herbs sang our ideas in Ne Nukes.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVdW2O4EzEQ

      Iranian President Hassan Rouhani said the US was “more than ever isolated” and could not change the nuclear deal.
      In a televised speech, Mr Rouhani said Tehran was committed to the deal and accused Mr Trump of making baseless accusations.

      In a joint statement, the UK, Germany and France said they were “concerned” by Mr Trump’s move but remained committed to the deal. But they added they also “shared concerns about Iran’s ballistic missile programme and regional activities”.

      NZ music:
      http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/musicalchairs/audio/2530442/no-nukes-how-nz-music-helped-us-ban-the-bomb

  10. 10

    I have been wondering

    What this world would be like if the world wars had not occured and all of the deaths, atrocities and world wide suffering had not occured, and all the soldiers hadn’t died or become fucked up from seeing the death of their friends and their enemies.

    The world population would be a bit bigger. Would the brains that were left intact have come up with solutions to the issues we face or would we be even worse off now. Does anyone know of an alternative history exploring this?

    2. 10.2

      You might Like Robert Silverberg’s Roma Eterna – in which Rome never fell.

      But the outcome might not be as good as might be imagined – public health systems in many countries date from the war, as do many beneficial technologies initially developed for anti-social reasons. Wars, like the deaths of monarchs, present an opportunity for change which sometimes has positive results.

      2. 10.2.2

        Thanks Stuart.

        Just a little musing – so much was devastated and those times helped form the attitudes of the west especially, that has led to massive consumption, commodification and so on.

        1. 10.2.2.1

          They’re a funny lot the Romans – their early success was very much as a community working together – but their later days were marked by the rise of predatory corporate enterprises like the slave grain farms. These sent the peasants broke, whose second sons had been the mainstay of the legions.

          If we’re looking for model governance Jared Diamond’s description of Japan’s response to ecological disaster in the 1700s is probably better than anything Europe has to offer. They fixed things.

  11. 11

    Surprise, a RWNJ/sewer mainstay is made up.

    “So where do these stories come from?”

    The reporter was asking about accounts that soldiers returning from Vietnam had been spat on by antiwar activists. I had told her the stories were not true. I told her that, on the contrary, opponents of the war had actually tried to recruit returning veterans. I told her about a 1971 Harris Poll survey that found that 99 percent of veterans said their reception from friends and family had been friendly, and 94 percent said their reception from age-group peers, the population most likely to have included the spitters, was friendly.

    […]

    But you don’t believe the stories, right? she asked. Acknowledging that I could not prove the negative — that they were not true — I went on to say there is no corroboration or documentary evidence, such as newspaper reports from the time, that they are true. Many of the stories have implausible details, like returning soldiers deplaning at San Francisco Airport, where they were met by groups of spitting hippies. In fact, return flights landed at military air bases like Travis, from which protesters would have been barred. Others include claims that military authorities told them on returning flights to change into civilian clothes upon arrival lest they be attacked by protesters. Trash cans at the Los Angeles airport were piled high with abandoned uniforms, according to one eyewitness, a sight that would surely have been documented by news photographers — if it had existed.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/opinion/myth-spitting-vietnam-protester.html?

  13. 13

    A mother of 8 killed when having a skydive in tandem, her instructor collided with another instructor. This is the nail in the coffin of NZ as being a country that should be advertising itself as the (safe) adventure capital of the world, or something alike. We shouldn’t be trusted with running a cake stall. But hey we can’t have cake stalls now because the cakes probably aren’t safe to eat because they haven’t been made in a kitchen that has met commercial standards.

    But people can go trustingly into life-risking activities and the self-control to ensure that prevention rules, precautionary approaches are adopted by all, just in case,
    and even after the Scottish father came here and criticised the last ‘accident’ and suggested we were careless and irresponsible, we still have this sort of shit occurring. It is disgraceful and makes me ashamed to be a New Zealander.

    When can someone start pulling the rug out from under the feet of these smarmy smart-arses, too young, and too little in touch with society to care enough to be given this responsibility for people’s lives.? Does anyone in government feel able to have strong, careful regulations and the regular hard-nosed nosy interfering, checker-upper that the regs are met, and ensure that they haven’t been bought off by business?

    I’m sick of watching these free market shits play at running the country, bribing their way into parliament through rising house prices and spurious ‘stable’ financial conditions. The horse has bolted from the stable, and the caretakers overseeing the place are too lazy to go in search of it. They should be harnessed to a machine, bend their backs and start planting out a new crop of promises that will grow to maturity to feed a new set of horses, in a better stable!

    And where on Radionz is there any detail about this on their site? Quad bike accident. Toddler found in pool. Forestry success. But mother of 8 killed at Queenstown, I think. I can’t check because I can’t find it. Perhaps it should be kept quiet, embarrassing to tourism.

    1. 13.1

      I don’t think that RNZ is keeping it quiet etc has anything to do with it, Greywarshark. I did check their website and agree that I could not find anything.

      As I presume you know, RNZ has been under massive funding restraints for the last nine years under National.

      Some big changes have been made in their News area in just the last couple of weeks – eg redundancies of some longstanding staff members, leading to Brent Edwards resigning in protest/support of these staff. Things are in a bit of disarray at present in the News area.

      They need our support – not our criticism at the moment.

      1. 13.1.1

        They need to know we notice. By keeping on being mild-mannered Clark Kent over the years, the neo libs have got away with their bad doings and almost finished us. Time to don our blue suits with the triangle on the front and do our superman saves NZ bit.

      1. 13.2.1

        Thanks joe90
        It was very silly of me to think that I would be hearing NZ news. Of course the news gatherers search for all tragedies of western nations as important for us to know about. You hear more important NZ news listening to Rural Report.

        And whatever happens outside English-speaking nations is however relatively unimportant.

    3. 13.3

      A mother of 8 killed when having a skydive in tandem, her instructor collided with another instructor. This is the nail in the coffin of NZ as being a country that should be advertising itself as the (safe) adventure capital of the world, or something alike. We shouldn’t be trusted with running a cake stall. But hey we can’t have cake stalls now because the cakes probably aren’t safe to eat because they haven’t been made in a kitchen that has met commercial standards.

      This tragedy happened in Australia, you silly person.

  14. 14

    BBC 100 Women names 100 influential and inspirational women around the world every year.

    “Indonesia has never had a political figure like Susi Pudjiastuti.

    When President Joko Widodo was asked why he appointed her back in 2014, he said he needed “a crazy person in order to make a breakthrough”.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41438279

    http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2017/10/05/prince-charles-to-susi-you-are-a-pioneer.html

    https://www.newfoodmagazine.com/news/45159/countries-fight-illegal-fishing/

    Go Susi!

  16. 16

    Persistent contrail over Pokeno today. First one I’ve seen in NZ, but I’ve only recently returned from Europe, where reflective climate mitigation is active all summer. What’s the story Kiwis?

    1. 16.1

      Are you talking about chemtrails? Is it actually a thing these days, or are you just spraying vinegar over your lawn to disperse them?

      1. 16.1.1

        NZs population density is so low it’s a waste of the chemicals to use them south of the Bombays. The pilot must have forgot to turn the valves off.

        1. 16.1.1.1

          So aluminum solid fuel technology can’t be mixed with liquid petroleum fuel systems. Hope you’re right, but from what I remember of third-year chemistry you’re wrong. Trusting Kiwis only allow silica based photo-chemicals. Is catalyst tech to seed clouds also feasible? Just looks like photo-chemical smog to me.

          1. 16.1.1.1.1

            I have no idea what you’re talking about, but then I’m not sure you do, either. Context is a wonderful thing, and links are also quite spectacular in their own right.

                1. 16.1.1.1.1.1.1.1

                  Oh wow. The things that happen when you see a bit of fun snark and play along a bit. Then it turns out we’ve got a real live one on our hands.

                  1. 16.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1

                    Yo, Andre. Any of your mates got a small digger I can borrow? Somewhere around the mid Sep, oh and again for a day in 2020. Scored kauri 😉

                    “Herald reports that the damage was believed to have been caused by digging for swamp kauri were dismissed as “fake news” by Refining NZ chief executive Sjoerd Post today.” (The NZ Hearld, Sep2017

      2. 16.1.2

        Not so funny bro. In north western Europe it is just eyes-open-obvious the whole summer long. Are you joking off the idea of climate mitigation? Seems obvious to me that tainting jet fuel would have significant reductions to global temperatures. Don’t forget that photo-chemical smog in the atmosphere approximately balances out the GHG effects of CO2. Basic climate science, son. Are you suggesting the UN is doing nothing with all that Paris Accord money? I thought the deal was to mitigate against the effects of increasing levels of GHGs.

        1. 16.1.2.1

          Math would help, son.

          Who pays the UN “Paris Accord money”? That would actually be cool, because that money would be traceable. We wouldn’t have to rely on your word for it, son, we’d have the UN reports showing how many megatonnes of “photo-chemical smog” they dispersed, and where. I just thought countries were doing things like phasing out petrol and diesel cars.

          1. 16.1.2.1.1

            You really think the accounts will be transparent? Our National Security Laws are orthodox, and written to permit censorship of information in the national interest. Info is actively removed from the net. eg. Wikispooks was once chocca with solids. UN goons smashed it (because they care about us so much, yeah right). JFK was talking about weather control before he died, long long ago. Tech has improved. Trust in the State hasn’t improved, eg: https://www.naturalnews.com/2017-10-10-need-a-story-about-the-detroit-mom-who-has-been-thrown-in-jail-for-refusing-to-vaccinate-check-out-330-recording-of-the-court-case.html Yeah truth hurts Mr F, so harden up and play politics, or go find another sport.

            …but all that darkness is endless, we need to seek the light. Like the lead-fuel “mistake”, we don’t need more aluminum in our brains. But the silica can be used to support agriculture. Political momentum behind climate mitigation, requires transparency first.

            1. 16.1.2.1.1.1

              So, no indication of payments to the UN in the Paris Accord, then.

              Which means no UN money for chemtrail distribution.

              Which means you need to come up with another fantasy to fervently believe.

          2. 16.1.2.1.2

            oh, so they are giving billions to car manufacturers for “research”, yeah typical.
            Good luck digging out info on where the money goes. I couldn’t find anything other and articles saying how hard the detail is to find.

            1. 16.1.2.1.2.1

              So who is giving billions to car manufacturers for research?

              Because it looks to me like the French are just saying “you have twenty or so years to come up with a compliant product, or you’re out of the car business”.

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