Open mike 25/04/2019

234 comments on “Open mike 25/04/2019”

Comment numbers have changed to permanent references. Older quoted numbers may no longer identify the same comment.

1. 1

   @lprent: The latest comment editor won’t let me reply to someone else’s comment. If I hit the reply button, the comment reply box appears with my name and email autofilled and the cursor at the end of my name. However, the comment text box is only one row high and clicking in the text box doesn’t get the cursor to appear there (it just disappears from the name box). Doing a top-level comment like this one works fine though. Hitting the tab key moves it to email then website then disappears and doesn’t ever make it to the comment text box.

   The previous comment editors tested over the last few days all worked fine for me.

   Chrome Version 74.0.3729.108 (Official Build) (64-bit) Windows 10 Pro Version 1803 OS build 17134.648
   1. 1.1

      Replies on my android phone go through ok. But I couldn’t do an edit, maybe because I turned the phone wifi off then back on between posting the comment and trying to edit it.
   2. 1.2

      Now that is weird. That is almost the exact version that I tested with.

      I’ll revert back and retest later.
      1. 1.2.1

         If you haven't already seen it, Sacha at comment 10 is having the same problem on a Mac OS.

         This reply done on my laptop, so something has just fixed the problem for me.

         eidt: Anne at 12 should be happier too, it appears to also have reverted back to a larger font.
      2. 1.2.2

         FWIW, firefox quantum 66.0.3 on win10 replies ok, but the "cancel reply" button doesn't do anything (reads as a link to [thispage]/#respond )

         edit… reads down page: sacha already reported it. #readWholeThreadBeforeResponding
         1. 1.2.2.1

            Indeed, Cancel reply is dead.
            1. 1.2.2.1.1

               f5 always worked better anyway.
               1. 1.2.2.1.1.1

                  Still works, but a little blunt to cancel a reply. I often have something active in the Find box (Ctrl-f) and that disappears too when using F5.
   3. 1.3

      Try it now.. This one (CkEditor) works ok.

      The TinyMce is the one you had a problem with. It is a bit surprising as it uses the underlying javascript editor.
      1. 1.3.1

         Working for me now, thanks. Was the content field’s tabindex = -1 setting standard for that tinymce editor?
      2. 1.3.2

         I had a similar problem this morning. No space for comment text in Editor and no cursor when using reply function but a single stand-alone comment did show that space + cursor. When cancelling a reply the space also disappeared in stand-alone comments unless I refreshed the whole page!?
         1. 1.3.2.1

            I had the latter behaviour as well.
            1. 1.3.2.1.1

               I pressed something last night and the comment space disappeared so that nothing could be entered. My son looked at source? code and restored function but it returned to that same condition – something was 'hidden'. Hitting enter automatically creates a double space, I would prefer to make my own. But can put comment today, so far so good. It is interesting how there are format icons at the top now. But if I edit, the edit box uses the same functions as usual eg the <i> for italics.
               1. 1.3.2.1.1.1

                  Yep. The re-edit box just shows raw.

                  Once I get the 'right' editor, I'll edd that to re-edit as well.
                  1. 1.3.2.1.1.1.1

                     Editor controls look nice.

                     Cancel Reply button does nothing.
                     1. 1.3.2.1.1.1.1.1

                        Ummm. Testing.

                        Yep – sure doesn't. Adding to Jira list.
                     2. 1.3.2.1.1.1.1.2

                        Ummm. Testing.

                        Yep – sure doesn't make the reply go away. However it does seem to stop the save ??

                        Adding to Jira list.
2. 2

   ”get woke, go broke”

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/lifestyle/2019/04/melbourne-vegan-caf-that-charged-men-18-percent-surcharge-to-reflect-the-pay-gap-closes-down.html

   Cafe that charges men 18% more goes broke – who would have guessed.
   1. 2.1

      Clearly, 18% more wasn’t enough.
      1. 2.1.1

         Ok – that was funny.
         1. 2.1.1.1

            Zelda D'Aprano in the 70's, a feminist protester for equality, spent a day trying to travel on buses, buy something, paying a smaller fare price than the official one, the discount being the percentage lower of women's wages than those of men. IThat was in Melbourne too.
      2. 2.1.2

         I Was looking at some ‘not chicken’ meat choices at the supermarket. Expensive. They use oil salts and cides to grow the vegetable protein then this is shipped to a lab using copious amounts of energy then to be pounded prodded poked altered abridged extracted and exhumed into burger.
         Then to be packaged, re-shipped primped and pimped, postered and posted to places placed precariously in piled presentations for punters perusal…
         It doesn’t really matter if it tastes like meat.
         They’ve added a laboratory, more shipping and more processing to pea farming.
         https://www.reuters.com/article/us-crops-protein/big-ag-turns-to-peas-to-meet-soaring-global-protein-demand-idUSKCN1IJ1B3
         Test tube meat is another story. I’ve not enough information to make a call I do understand the move to produce it. The profit motive, but also, whole protein for the masses without factory farms.
         Dietary trends drive consumers to all sorts of ridiculous food choices (and some healthy). Growing a garden (and eating the produce) will improve your health better than Atkins, keto, low-carb, bla de bla, et al, etc.
         1. 2.1.2.1

            <i>It doesn’t really matter if it tastes like meat.</i>

            The people buying these triumphs of industrial food processing should stop calling themselves vegeterians and just eat chicken if they want to eat something that tastes like chicken.

            <i>Growing a garden (and eating the produce) will improve your health better than Atkins, keto, low-carb, bla de bla, et al, etc.</i>

            To be fair, any diet that minimises your refined carb intake will improve your health more than one that doesn’t. Both growing your own food and Atkins etc fit that bill, although it sounds plausible that growing your own food would give the most improvement.
            1. 2.1.2.1.1

               Depends on your reasons for becoming a vegetarian – I reached 25 years as a vegetarian yesterday and my reasons were and are that I didn’t like the taste, animal welfare, and environmental impact of over-farming, so for me, fake meat is pointless because I don’t like the taste of it. For others, products like Quorn are just the ticket to become vegetarian without having to completely give up their favorite dishes or to allow families with mixed diets to share meals more easily.
               1. 2.1.2.1.1.1

                  WtB

                  A massive missile aimed at masticating mankind in metamorphosis.
               2. 2.1.2.1.1.2

                  Like you – as an omnivore, there isn't a fruit or vegetable that I don't enjoy.

                  But also, we omnivores also enjoy beef, mutton, pork, chicken etc as well.

                  Just as homo sapiens [as omnivores] have ALWAYS done.
3. 3

   You woke early today, James. Been to the parade?
   1. 3.1

      im up early every morning.
   2. 3.2

      C’mon. You know James doesn’t believe in a “socialist” endeavor, such as collectively opposing the Nazi’s.
      1. 3.2.1

         You do know, I suppose, that the New Zealand Communist Party, like the equivalent in Britain, were strongly against opposing the Nazi's until June 1941?

         "Early in the war, communists' allegiance to the Soviet Union aligned them with Germany. In 1940 their newspaper, People's Voice, was banned by the government, and books on communism were among those outlawed under New Zealand censorship controls. But when Germany invaded the Soviet Union in June 1941, the New Zealand Communist Party, along with others in the west, shifted its allegiance and swung in behind the war effort."

         https://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/second-world-war-at-home/in-dissent

         Would you call that "collectively opposing the Nazi's" in a socialist endeavour?
         1. 3.2.1.1

            WTF has that to do with my comment.
4. 4

   Pete George promotes white poppies over red in his Anzac Day post
   https://yournz.org/2019/04/25/anzac-day-2019/
5. 5

   Rooster in the neighbourhood, James?
   1. 5.1

      Shane Jones 🙂
   2. 5.2

      Or a peacock
      1. 5.2.1

         Over stuffed turkey
         1. 5.2.1.1

            Gobble gobble
6. 6

   Looking at Bernie’s actual record suggests if he gets to be prez he’ll actually end up being moderate, even centrist. That’s without even considering the fact that to get any actual legislation through he would need the vote of the 50th senator, at best likely to be someone like Joe Manchin or Krysten Sinema. Which all means the anti-Bernie sentiment from moderate Dems is probably misplaced, but also those currently “feeling the Bern” would likely end up bitterly disappointed.

   https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/4/24/18510756/bernie-sanders-2020-democrats-neoliberals-chill
   1. 6.1

      Bernie’s campaign slogan should be
      “Prepare for the disappointment.”
      1. 6.1.1

         “Downer is coming”
         1. 6.1.1.1

            “OBummer”
            1. 6.1.1.1.1

               “Despair and stasis”
               1. 6.1.1.1.1.1

                  “Just Biden my time.”
                  1. 6.1.1.1.1.1.1

                     “Better with Beto”
                     1. 6.1.1.1.1.1.1.1

                        “Bolt in with Moulton”
                        “Burstin’ Kirstin”
                        “SuperLooper”
                        “Pretty Samey with Amy”
                        Tim Ryan: Working Class Man
                        “Warrior Worrying Warren”
                        and of course:
                        “Made America Great Again”
                        1. 6.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1

                           "Kool Kids for Kamala"
                           1. 6.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1

                              Do you see Trump's chances of a second term as greater, or lesser than, 45% chance of success?
                           2. 6.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2

                              I think the 2020 election is the Democrat's to lose. I reckon there's around a 1 in 3 chance the Dems will indeed lose it.

                              Looks to me like the electorate is around 20% those who will vote for whatever has an (R) next to its name, even if it's a three-weeks gone mouldering corpse. There's another 20% that are middle-finger voters. The mandarin master baiter has those segments locked down hard. At this stage I find it hard to see he'll pull back much if any support from the remaining 60% of the electorate.

                              So the Dem candidate needs to be able to pull in a bit more than 2/3 of the remaining electorate. Against what's bound to be unprecedented levels of attempted smears over social media (having seen how successful that was against Hillary). That social media will target the far left, to try to push them to third party candidates or just not vote. They will also try to get centrists to not vote, by smears and by painting the vote as making no difference anyway.

                              There will also be unprecedented attempts at voter suppression (since that worked against Stacey Abrams in Georgia 2018). Because by then the courts will have been stacked enough there's a good chance of getting away with it.

                              I reckon Bernie and Biden are both particularly vulnerable to smear campaigns, because their long histories in Washington will have all kinds of little nuggets that can be twisted and blown up into major smears. For instance, Biden's treatment of Anita Hill would be quite a starting point for a campaign to turn woke lefties onto third parties or to just not vote. Then there's their age, which makes them both vulnerable to "hillary's health" type smears (never mind the 6'3 239lb incumbent's best physical condition for any president ever).

                              So I think a tough primary is going to be important for sorting out which candidates have the skilz for dealing with the coming smears, as well as finding most of the background weak points that can become the little grain of truth needed for a successful smear.
      2. 6.1.2

         Bern’ere Before!
   2. 6.2

      Bernie bascially just wants a return to the US of 1933-1980, without the wife beatings and cross burnings.

      In other words, more or less a Keynesian welfare state, with strong trade unions.

      That seems to be what passes for socialism in the USA.
7. 7

   The numbers weren’t too bad at Waikumete Cemetery this morning for the dawn parade.
   Couple of unwelcome changes however.

   Police presence shutting off a large surrounding road, and constricting the whole of Great North Road with patrols.

   And they used to have little candles lit under each of the hundreds of serried war graves, which were such a hopeful glimmer.

   I want to see every neighborhood go back to their own commemoration, as well as the large regional ones. I thought this was supposed to be celebrating a free society? And bring back the candles.
   1. 7.1

      Police have been clear the security requirements are for this year only, because of the well-known issue of increased threat levels for public gatherings after big terrorist events. I am confident that most attendees would happily trade temporarily-blocked nearby roads for a better chance of survival.
8. 8

   With Kushner in his pocket MBS can do whatever TF he likes.

   https://twitter.com/amnesty/status/1120730249220718592
   Just as Jared Kushner answered questions about the close ties between the White House and Saudi Arabia in New York on Tuesday, the Middle Eastern kingdom beheaded 37 people in its largest mass execution in at last three years.
   The executions, of mostly Shiite men accused of terrorism related crimes, were part of what Washington’s Gulf Institute director Ali Al-Ahmed called “the largest mass execution of Shiites in the kingdom’s history.”
   Al-Ahmed identified 34 of the 37 victims as Shiite.
   According to reports, Saudi Arabian security services nailed one of the heads to a poll as a warning and one victim was crucified after his execution.
   https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/04/23/kushner-talks-accountability-crown-prince-just-saudis-offer-egregious-display
   1. 8.1

      Kushner+Bolton have been reasonably successful bringing Israel, Saudi Arabia and the United States together in the form of their common sworn enemy in the form of Iran. Iran threatens Israel’s regional nuclear monopoly and decreases is security dominance around israel. Iran threatens Saudi Arabia on security and religious grounds. How Iran threatens the US is completely beyond me.

      With the U.S. President officially turning a blind eye to the Saudi murder of Khashoggi, and Netanyahu re-elected, this untied force against iran will re-bind and strengthen. The result will be Saudi leadership to induce other Arab states to open their economies to Israeli investment and technical expertise (particularly in fresh water, and security technology), brining Israel substantial economic benefits.

      The bigger goal between Israel, Saudi Arabia, and the US, is for money to talk louder than religion.
      Which is not an unusual way to achieve lasting peace.
      1. 8.1.1

         The end game is the Aramco IPO (the worlds most profitable company)
         https://www.forbes.com/sites/ellenrwald/2019/04/01/saudi-aramco-is-the-most-profitable-company-in-the-world-but-where-is-all-the-money-going/#47a07a4857d8
         Destabalise other global exporters ie Iran, Venezuela,Libya value goes up.
         1. 8.1.1.1

            Fucking with other nation’s economies with oil sanctions has always worked out so well.
            But if you want a war, why not.

            “With the announcement today, we’ve made clear our seriousness of purpose,” Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said during a press conference on Monday. “We are going to zero. How long we remain there, at zero, depends solely on the Islamic Republic of Iran’s senior leaders. We’ve made our demands very clear to the ayatollah and his cronies.”
            The decision to stop issuing sanctions waivers threatens to wipe roughly 1 million barrels per day off the market at a time when analyst say oil supply is already tightening. Crude futures spiked to nearly six-month highs on news of the policy, which was first reported Sunday by The Washington Post.
            […]
            Companies in those countries now face the threat of being locked out of the U.S. financial system if they continue to import crude from Iran. The question is whether some of those countries will seek to skirt the sanctions, including by facilitating or encouraging purchases of Iranian crude through companies not tied to the U.S. financial system.
            China’s Foreign Ministry on Monday denounced Washington’s Iran policy.
            “China opposes the unilateral sanctions and so-called ‘long-arm jurisdictions’ imposed by the US. Our cooperation with Iran is open, transparent, lawful and legitimate, thus it should be respected,” Foreign Ministry spokesperson Geng Shuang told reporters.
            “Our government is committed to upholding the legitimate rights and interests of Chinese companies and will play a positive and constructive role in upholding the stability of global energy market.”
            Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs Mevlut Cavusoglu also rejected the sanctions, saying they “will not serve regional peace and stability” and would hurt the Iranian people.

            https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/22/trump-expected-to-end-iran-oil-waivers-try-to-drive-exports-to-zero.html
            1. 8.1.1.1.1

               great way to hasten the abandonment of the US dollar in oil deals, and the expanded use of alternative arrangements to SWIFT
               1. 8.1.1.1.1.1

                  Yeah, sanctions have always encouraged nations to make good decisions.

                  /.
         2. 8.1.1.2

            Not sure Aramco is a solid buy – there's some softness in the Ghawar field at least.
      2. 8.1.2

         The other big winner you haven’t mentioned from the Iran shenanigans is Russia.
         1. 8.1.2.1

            That’s no lie
            
      3. 8.1.3

         Agree with most of that, except:
         “Which is not an unusual way to achieve lasting peace”
         There is the war with Iran bit that will come before any peace, with the way these governments are behaving.
         The way you’ve written that last line suggests we should accept the alignment of interests that’s going on with a shrug.
9. 9

   Pricks are worried about the optics rather than the ethics of detaining children in a military prison.

   The United States is considering housing migrant children at the US military prison at Guantanamo Bay to help handle an up-tick in the number of immigrants crossing the US southern border, according to a new report.
   The idea was first proposed earlier this year as the Department of Homeland Security looked for military facilities where migrants could be held as they wait for their cases to be processed.
   But, the proposal has not gained much traction so far, with officials telling the New York Times that the idea has been less ideal because of the optics involved with housing children right next to terrorism suspects in the notorious American prison.

   https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/guantanamo-bay-migrant-children-us-immigration-trump-border-a8883511.html
10. 10

    @lprent – same problem as Andre at 1, different platform: MacOS 10.14.4, FF 66.0.3
    Was working for me yesterday, whatever has changed since.
11. 11

    They’ll be looking for a way to make up for not being able to introduce a gains tax. Make no mistake, you can’t trust Labour on tax.” – Simon Bridges.

    While Jacinda has put an end to a comprehensive CGT, it hasn’t stopped National from attacking them on tax.
    1. 11.1

       Conveniently, National already gave us the bright line test which functions like a mild version of CGT.
       1. 11.1.1

          Yes.

          Meanwhile, it seems Labour were surprised from supporters CGT reaction.

          It will be interesting to see (in the next round of polls) if Jacinda did expend some of that political capital after all.
          1. 11.1.1.1

             The Tax Working Group policy came from a regional conference as a policy remit to work through options (the regional conference had large numbers of tax remits to replace CGT as Labour Party policy as CGT had failed at the 2011 and 2014 elections and the mood from LECs was to dump CGT), so it was actually supported by Labour Party members, not just the MPs.
12. 12

    Cynical though it may be, Soper’s latest Herald contribution does have a point:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12225063

    I also found it ironic that France and New Zealand are planning to lead an International Terrorism Summit next month given that France committed such an act on our soil in 1985. Its quite funny really, although the grand-master of wit and humour, David Lange probably wouldn’t think so.

    Edit: lprent, the font size is very small in comment box – about 8 by the looks if it. A bit of struggle for us oldies.
    1. 12.1

       We had a young French family holidaying here at the time back in 1985 and they were mortified and genuinely shocked that their govt had blown up the Rainbow Warrior and killed someone on NZ soil. We have French mayors here this ANZAC day that have come to remember the Kiwis who never made it home from WW1/WW2. There are places in France that celebrate and honour our soldiers efforts to free them from the Germans. The French will always have cap in hand when it comes to NZ and the irony of past events.

       Good on our PM for seizing the moment, joining with France and “trying to right the wrongs on the cyber highway”.
13. 13

    So there is talk of Labour introducing a land tax, however the suggestion is it is to be applied and collected by local councils. Helping them with their shortfalls while robbing Labour of any revenue, thus funding to do more.

    Therefore, it isn’t going to be much compensation for Labour abandoning a CGT. Which (going off their surprise re the public reaction to the dropping of a CGT) may come as another surprise to them.
    1. 13.1

       There is talk of National introducing a new PNT (pay no tax) round of tax cuts followed by a GNS (get no services) when becoming govt next.

       Insurance companies are understandably excited and already working on a suite of policies with competitive premiums for those that can pay.

       Hardly surprising.
       1. 13.1.1

          
       2. 13.1.2

          There is talk of National introducing a new PNT (pay no tax) round of tax cuts followed by a GNS (get no services) when becoming govt next.

          With the abandoning of a CGT and the suggestion of gifting councils any land tax revenue, looks as if Labour are trying to beat them to it.
    2. 13.2

       “… robbing Labour of any revenue, thus funding to do more. Therefore, it isn’t going to be much compensation for Labour abandoning a CGT…”

       Labour (and the working group) had talked about a revenue-neutral CGT/personal income tax programme – so it was never going to be a way to fund other initiatives.
       1. 13.2.1

          It was going to restore some fairness to our tax system while helping to address inequality by redistributing the new tax take.

          However, Jacinda unnecessarily put an end to that ever happening under her watch. An achievement the opposition never succeeded in and would be proud of.

          As for being a way to fund other initiatives, it was only projected to be tax neutral for the fist 5 years, then the tax return vastly exceeds the proposed tax cuts. Thus, giving them scope (by providing the funding) to do far more.
          1. 13.2.1.1

             It was going to restore some fairness to our tax system while helping to address inequality by redistributing the new tax take.

             Improving the fairness of the tax system, while laudable, isn't about increasing revenue. Redistributing tax-based spending to address inequality can be done regardless of whether a CGT is implemented or not – the effects will be the same, because the tax take will be the same – CGT wasn't about increasing revenue.
             1. 13.2.1.1.1

                CGT wasn't about increasing revenue

                Of course it was. That's how they were going to cover the accompanying tax cuts, thereby making it tax neutral (in the first 5 years). After which, the tax revenue vastly increases.

                Moreover, it was about fairness via taxing currently tax free gains.

                Yes, redistributing tax-based spending to address inequality can be done via other means, but those don't also address the unfairness of tax free gains.
                1. 13.2.1.1.1.1

                   In addition, the tax-free capital gains distort the economy by diverting investment from production to renting activity. Great for capital owners, not so great for anybody else. In the end, we all miss out. But the shortsightedness of some (many?) prevented a mature debate and the rest is history.
                   1. 13.2.1.1.1.1.1

                      I agree. My dispute is with the idea that by killing it the government's foregone a lucrative income stream it could use on welfare programmes.
                      1. 13.2.1.1.1.1.1.1

                         Some ‘critics’ only want to focus on what might have happened in 5 years’ time. These same ‘critics’ jump up & down when presented with projected figures. Go figure.
                         1. 13.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1

                            Labour built up the hype, talked a big game but are struggling to fund it. Now they are surprised they are being criticized for dropping a means that would have helped them fund it. Go figure indeed.
                            1. 13.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1

                               Chairman, you'll be happy with Patrick Smellie's prediction that the government is temporarily sticking to the course of their own budget responsibility rules for this term in order to earn the trust of the international money hawks (didn't realise they were so powerful).

                               Then, Patrick surmises, the government will loosen the rules and increase debt to international norms. He also points out that you can't just throw plans and money at infrastructure when building capacity is already stretched. If only we had a competent government over the last 10 years!

                               https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/112231423/you-want-transformational-government-try-this
                            2. 13.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2

                               What is “it”?
                2. 13.2.1.1.1.2

                   That's how they were going to cover the accompanying tax cuts, thereby making it tax neutral

                   If you increase one source of revenue so you can reduce another source of revenue by the same amount, you don't increase your revenue. That was the whole point of trading it off against tax cuts, being able to promise it wasn't a tax grab.

                   The view that it would eventually lead to dramatically increased revenue is "jam tomorrow" and, even if it were a realistic prospect, wouldn't give the government increased revenue in a timeframe useful to it – NZ governments don't get more than nine years and this one's nearly had two. If it had introduced a CGT it couldn't expect this alleged increase in revenue to turn up while it was still in power.
                   1. 13.2.1.1.1.2.1

                      While you don't increase your net revenue, you still have to increase your revenue to provide redistribution via the proposed tax cuts to keep it tax neutral.

                      Moreover, Government accounting methods are largely based on forecasting. Thus, the added revenue stream from a CGT would improve the projected tax take beyond the 5 years, meaning the Government would be able to start increasing the capital and operating allowances in the Budget following it's implementation.

                      Jacinda's plan to reduce child poverty is a 10 year plan.
          2. 13.2.1.2

             Workers pay tax on their wages; landlords pay tax on their rental incomes; businessmen pay tax on their profits; the only ones not paying tax on their earnings are those who are not taxed on their return on their investment in family homes, this return taking the form of free rental accommodation.

             Untaxed capital gain from a transaction between a buyer and seller, which produces no income, and which affects nobody else but them, is hardly unfair.
             1. 13.2.1.2.1

                Untaxed capital gain from a transaction between a buyer and seller, which produces no income, and which affects nobody else but them, is hardly unfair.

                I see that you are still sticking to your capital gain is not income. The other mistake is that it does not affect anybody else but the vendor and the buyer. You will have a very hard time arguing that. For starters, lenders, real estate agents, and insurance companies. Then, the other houses in the same street and area. I’ll make a big pot of tea …
                1. 13.2.1.2.1.1

                   That's interesting. This is the first time I've heard the effects of capital gain on "lenders, real estate agents, and insurance companies" and on "other houses in the same street and area" raised in this particular debate. However, if a property rises in value, and then is sold, these side effects are going to occur, but that's the result of the capital increase itself, not of the transaction. The sale of family homes no doubt involve the same effects.

                   And, as you say I'm sticking to my assertion that capital gain is not income. And I'm not making a mistake in saying so.
                   1. 13.2.1.2.1.1.1

                      Well, I suppose that deliberate lying is not in the nature of a mistake…

                      Your obfuscatory manoeuvres are risible.
                      1. 13.2.1.2.1.1.1.1

                         Thanks, In Vino, that saves me from having to reply.
                         1. 13.2.1.2.1.1.1.1.1

                            It doesn't actually. In Vino, apparently incapab!e of presenting an intelligent rebuttal, has merely resorted to insults. Despite his pseudonym there really is no truth in him.
                      2. 13.2.1.2.1.1.1.2

                         "Obfuscatory maneuvres"? Really ? Or is it just that your powers of comprehension are somewhat weak ?
                         1. 13.2.1.2.1.1.1.2.1

                            Your premise was wrong. A sale of an asset that realises capital gain cannot be viewed as a transaction strictly between two parties (buyer and vendor). It obviously involves other parties, often dictated by Law, and always has an impact on a third party or parties. If you fail to see this then any further engagement with you on this topic is utterly futile.

                            Please note that I don’t even have to bring CGT into the conversation up to this point.
    3. 13.3

       Land tax makes complete sense to me as a means to lower the value of land and increase revenue, but the local government option in the TWG report recommends the Productivity Commission investigates local government levying tax on vacant land in addition to rates.

       Personally, I would happily see a land tax on all land, even if it is at 0.5% above $500K or something like that.
       1. 13.3.1

          Require far more detail to know how it will exactly impact. But we may see a land tax may only result in land becoming more productive and not less valuable.

          Most are over local government continuously increasing rates above the rate of inflation, so giving them this revenue stream on top of their rate take will most likely go down like a cup of cold sick. Unless the majority are going to get rate cuts.

          Nevertheless, it robs central government of any funding revenue, thus their ability to do more.
          1. 13.3.1.1

             In the ‘good old days’ people could claim depreciation on rental’s buildings and if you sold the rental for more than its depreciated value you were taxed on that income.

             Because land is not depreciated, this won’t work but in essence, a CGT would be a tax on a fixed asset, including land that has risen in real value over time.
          2. 13.3.1.2

             That's such a pathetic meme – rates only going up by inflation. That means that the Council could do very little to build infrastructure, cope with changing needs. Going up by inflation merely means keeping the spending value of the money at the same level, virtually a nil rise. It is the sort of bleat that comes from the older age group who want to be kept in the style they are used to.
             1. 13.3.1.2.1

                It's the sort of noise you hear when you talk to just about anyone about their local council. Wasteful spending, budget blowouts and over taxing/rating are the most common gripes.

                Many households are struggling, thus want councils to live more within their means.

                Increasing council rates adds to the cost of home ownership while driving up rents.
                1. 13.3.1.2.1.1

                   "Councils living within their means" almost all the time leads to libraries closing, parks being sold off, pools closing, halls being demolished etc."

                   Every time.
                   1. 13.3.1.2.1.1.1

                      Extremist rubbish, millsy.

                      Councils living within their means simply means expenditure on such infrastructure will better reflect what a community can afford.
       2. 13.3.2

          Already paying Land Tax in the form of rates.
          1. 13.3.2.1

             Rates are not a Land Tax as such.
             1. 13.3.2.1.1

                Of course they are . They are based on the value of your land.
                1. 13.3.2.1.1.1

                   Rates here in Orclund are based on capital value, which is land plus improvements. If it were just land value, the distribution of rates paid would be quite different than what it is now.
                2. 13.3.2.1.1.2

                   Rates pay for services and usage of infrastructure associated with the land. A CGT or land tax is a tax on income from the sale of that land. One is local, the other is national.
          2. 13.3.2.2

             We pay GST on rates as well, so government gets some of it already, but I think a separate land tax on all sections > $500K would make sense even if it feels like taxing more tax again, not least because it would be administratively very simple to collect – gets added to rates and passed on quarterly.
          3. 13.3.2.3

             We are discussing sources of revenue for central government. Rates are local government revenue.
14. 14

    @ Anne
    Anzac Day
    Very Ironic that many NZ TRoops have been Honoured by French Personnel – Mayors of Towns – and individuals.
    Several Mayors are in New Zealand today, honouring the Grit and Purpose of our Troops. Also Bringing their thanks from the populations.
    But you and and your friend soper would not know one iota of what our men and women achieved in France. Nor the extent of the gratitiude shown to this day by France.

    You and Soper – should really aplogise to the families of the dead. Instead of having a fit of the funnies.

    Soper,
    1. 14.1

       You stupid ass.

       My comment was not a cynical overview of the spirit of ANZAC. It was merely a heads up concerning a somewhat wry point made by a journalist and did not include the body of his article. If you can't tell the difference, then you need your head read.

       My father saw active service in 1918 during WW1 and lost a number of his mates. He was an army officer in WW2 who was responsible for the welfare of several Pacific Island nations and also spent periods of time fighting the Japanese in extremely precarious conditions.

       You apologise to me.
15. 15

    @Anne

    Anazac Day 2019

    I didn't for a moment think you would apologise. Certainly your little friend Soper won't.

    Enjoy your funnies. You two little dove loves can keep on abusing the French, but neither of you will ever mature.
    1. 15.1

       OT, you obviously don't do irony. You appear to have completely misunderstood Anne's comments. I get her reference to the cynical element of Sopers article, why can't you. I couldn't imagine Anne being a "love dove" with Barry Soper, if she is then I have disembarked at the wrong planet.
       1. 15.1.1

          Hi Kat

          I am aware that a female scorned is mayhem. Not in the least bit amusing.

          Also when you see all the white Crosses pegged in the ground – each representing a motherless dead soldier, name imprinted – You are inclined to lose interest in the weak comedy of Soper.

          So, via you Kat, I promise to giggle at Soper. He is a child. And hopefully I will leave Anne without any cross now or in the future.

          Thank You Kat
       2. 15.1.2

          Yes, you're on the right planet Kat. 😉

          Can't stand the Soper. I don't read him or the other ne'er do well tighty righties who frequent the pages of the Herald and other MSM outlets. Eg. the Hosk, and the Hosk's spouse (whose name escapes me), the Soper spouse, HDP and the Hooton. Oh and rwnj Leighton Smith. There’s a few more who are so low in my estimation I don’t know their names.

          But I concede I was attracted to the Soper headline because the irony had not escaped either.
16. 16

    George was a thoroughly likeable character when I worked with him many years ago.

    Condolences to Dame Tariana and whānau.

    https://www.waateanews.com/waateanews/x_news/MjE1ODc/Rock-of-M%C4%81ori-party-George-Turia-dies
17. 17

    The bullshit 10,000 jobs claim?

    Although noted by Bryan Bruce, not hearing much outrage from many of the left on this. If it were National pulling this one, I'm sure there would be far more noise.
    1. 17.1

       If you wish to include others into the conversation with yourself, it pays to explain what you’re talking about.
       1. 17.1.1

          The Provincial growth fund and the incredibly dubious way new jobs are calculated.
          1. 17.1.1.1

             What’s the reference to Bryan Bruce?
             1. 17.1.1.1.1

                He notes it in his latest blog.

                https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/04/25/guest-blog-bryan-bruce-the-complete-take-down-of-nz-labour-no-matthew-i-have-not-been-sleeping-or-deliberately-misleading/
       2. 17.1.2

          He's bringing Kiwiblog's talking points over here: The bullshit 10,000 jobs claim. Hold your nose if you follow the link.
          1. 17.1.2.1

             No. You linked to kiwiblog. My reference was to the daily blog.

             Nevertheless, the talking point is totally valid as many on the left aren't going to be happy with this dubious carry on either.
             1. 17.1.2.1.1

                Trouble is that at the moment the Government is making itself an easy target.

                Copping it quite rightly from all sides.

                An understandable error from PM.
    2. 17.2

       Not necessarily bullshit but certainly a convenient lack of rigour….and not a good look.

       I would be very surprised if anything approaching the number of jobs claimed in application is ever achieved….but it seems to me that is unimportant in NZ Firsts grand scheme of things and that is quietly accepted by the coalition (the alternative being what it is)
       1. 17.2.1

          Not necessarily bullshit…

          A promised job is not a job created, thus bullshit indeed.

          While it may be NZF's baby, people will be questioning Labour's oversight.

          It's a real shame this fund has been managed so poorly as it had real potential to do so much more.

          Labour needs to get on top of this before all the money is gone and been largely wasted.
          1. 17.2.1.1

             Labour have limited ability to control Jones and it is possible that some initiatives could exceed job projections though I concede that is the lesser likelyhood
             1. 17.2.1.1.1

                They better get on top of it/Jones otherwise they are just giving National more ammo to shoot them down.

                These kind of issues pisses off voters from both the left and right. Even many NZF supporters will be pissed.

                And while Labour are at it sorting this out, they should also look at the practice of giving offshore owned forestry companies money to plant trees.

                Planting trees is what they already do. We have enough money heading offshore, we don't need a government assisting in more of this. Keep it local and keep it real.
                1. 17.2.1.1.1.1

                   The answer(s) might be hiding in here: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/110212861/400-a-day-forestry-industry-told-to-improve-pay-to-meet-one-billion-tree-planting-target
                   1. 17.2.1.1.1.1.1

                      Jones let the cat out of the bag from the get go. Work for the dole was what he first touted.

                      Evidently, the living wage wasn't a priority when it should have been a condition of receiving the taxpayer funding.
                      1. 17.2.1.1.1.1.1.1

                         You are criticising Jones for being simplistic in a simplistic way. That’s not very constructive, is it now?
                2. 17.2.1.1.1.2

                   I wondered what negative line you would be taking The Chairman. It appears that you have surfaced from the pond after having a whiff of the latest target, Shane Jones, as he goes round disrupting the comfortable patterns of patronage that Gnashional had set up.
                   1. 17.2.1.1.1.2.1

                      I wondered what negative line you would be taking The Chairman.

                      Really, greywarshark? Are you backing the dubious way new jobs are being calculated while having a go at me for highlighting it?
                3. 17.2.1.1.1.3

                   "Planting trees is what they already do"

                   Nah.

                   Not so much

                   https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/incompetence-laid-bare-national-lambastes-destruction-400-000-pine-tree-seedlings
18. 18

    I'd like to know how exactly this lighter-heavier-lighter thing works.

    An innovative aircraft that turns into a “lighter-than-air” balloon to propel itself forward has been flown for the first time.

    The Phoenix is designed to repeatedly switch between being lighter and heavier than air to generate thrust and allow it to stay in the skies indefinitely.

    https://wtop.com/tech/2019/04/lighter-than-air-aircraft-has-first-test-flight/
    1. 18.1

       The article says "The vehicle’s fuselage contains helium, allowing to to ascend, as well as an air bag that inhales and compresses air, enabling it to descend."

       So I'm picturing an outer bag that can take pressure, and an inner bag filled with helium. When you want maximum lift, vent the space between the two bags so the helium inner bag pushes out all the air between the two bags. When you want to descend, pump air between the two bags so the inner helium bag gets compressed down and you're adding all the weight of the air you're pumping in at higher than atmospheric pressure and density.

       So to operate it, you have it rise in it's maximum lift to the desired altitude, with the little wings being used to push it in the desired horizontal direction. Then at the max altitude, pump air in so it wants to drop, and adjust the wings to keep going in the desired horizontal direction. Rinse and repeat.

       A wee bit like tacking upwind in a sailboat, using the vertical dimension.
       1. 18.1.1

          Ingenious as Scottish inventions have often been.
       2. 18.1.2

          That outer shell is going to have to be incredibly strong.

          At a guess, based on the photo I would think the volume would be about 40 cubic metres. Helium has a mass of about 0.18 kg/cubic metre at STP. Air is about 1.20 kg/cubic metre under the same conditions Thus the total lift would be around 40kg when there was only helium in the outer shell, at STP, and that would mean the maximum weight of the plane would have to be less than 40kg. That would seem to be an incredibly thin shell to have the total weight of a thing that size below 40 kg, when you consider the solar cells that are on the wings, particularly when you consider that it would have to be able to handle pressures that were significantly greater than the atmospheric pressure outside when air was pumped in and compressed.

          Great idea though isn't it, and much cheaper than satellites for communication..
          1. 18.1.2.1

             It might not have any structure to it at all, it may just be a flexible bag. The wings appear held in place with guy wires, and there's wrinkles visible at the tail. As far as weight goes, they look like thin-film solar cells, and for the wings you can make surprisingly rigid skins lighter than 300g/sqm.

             As far as pressure goes, if I remember right a whitewater raft needs around 0.15ish bar. Something that much bigger won't need anywhere near as much pressure to hold its shape.
             1. 18.1.2.1.1

                My use of STP was based on the fact that I assumed that the pressure inside the bag should be at least equal to the outside air pressure.

                Your number if 0.15 bar is the pressure above the pressure outside. Thus the actual pressure, used to determine the mass of the gas inside would have to be taken as 1.15 bar assuming that the plane is at an elevation where the outside pressure is about 1 bar (ie fairly near the ground).

                Looking at the photo again, and the other article you link to I agree that I have probably greatly underestimated the volume. Ah for the days of the 200,000 m3 Hindenberg though for a real airship.
          2. 18.1.2.2

             BTW, that 40m^3 looks awfully stingy to me. The wings look quite a lot higher than the tops of the dudes' heads, so call it at least 2m radius/4m diameter. It's 15m long, but the tail is kinda skinny. so call it an ellipsoid 2m x 2m x 10m, for a volume of 170ish m^3. Other reports say it's 120kg, so that kinda ties in with a volume up over 150 m^3.

             https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-48013519
19. 19

    Bryan Bruce exposes Labour's spin

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/04/25/guest-blog-bryan-bruce-the-complete-take-down-of-nz-labour-no-matthew-i-have-not-been-sleeping-or-deliberately-misleading/
    1. 19.1

       Counting the number of jobs created by Shane's fund by toting up the projected positions claimed in fund applicants' applications is outrageous. It smacks of deception.

       Can someone count the pay packets please.

       Shane's fund is in dire need of a credibility injection.
       1. 19.1.1

          Indeed, David.
       2. 19.1.2

          Always willing to put the boot in David Mac. I hope Shane's fund receives a lot of eyeballing from you. We will be interested to find out the good and the bad that you find from your cynical eye.
    2. 19.2

       As usual Bryan Bruce nails it.
       1. 19.2.1

          As usual Bryan Bruce nails it.

          The interweb would be a boring place, bereft of credible commentary were it not for the contributions of Bryan Bruce.

          A slightly different tone to this morning's offering. BB doesn't need to defend himself from such a numpty, but it was a pleasure to read. Each shot right on the mark.

          Made all the sweeter as Bryan Bruce really does believe what he writes.
          1. 19.2.1.1

             Eloquently done
             1. 19.2.1.1.1

                That's two goes at the same thing on the same post The Chairman.

                Please make your point and not repeat yourself, it makes you sound aged.
          2. 19.2.1.2

             I don't know who Matthew Craig is but I think he just got his arse handed to him on a plate.
             1. 19.2.1.2.1

                
             2. 19.2.1.2.2

                Yeah…I did actually try to look him up, nada…and I'm handicapped by not being on Faceache…
    3. 19.3

       Hmmm, it looks like Mr Bruce is quoting verbatim Dr Eric Crampton of The New Zealand Initiative without proper citation or acknowledgement. Oh dear.

       So, the promised 10,000 jobs – actually, it is 13,085 according to the latest available info from MBIE – is BS because they are based on promises and assumptions and may never eventuate? Future projections based on available information are verboten. Is that the crux of it?
20. 20

    Rob Stock doesn’t like to own stuff and gives his reasons. Interestingly, he omits two important considerations: 1) depreciation (most stuff becomes next to worthless over time and becomes literally junk) and 2) opportunity cost (money could be better invested in something that increases in value over time).

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/112223434/the-battle-between-your-possessions-and-your-savings
    1. 20.1

       I find Rob Stock to be one of the better financial writers, with a lot of common sense and written so it's easy to understand.
       1. 20.1.1

          Yes, lucid writing.
21. 21

    I think the Regional Growth Fund should have a career focus. Then it becomes an investment.

    Clambering around a mountain planting seedlings is not a career.

    Shane has left himself open to flying mud that will stick.

    "It would of been cheaper for us to pay these people $100k a year to watch TV hey Shane."

    When the positions come with the potential for a flourishing future, dividing a billion dollars by the actual jobs created becomes the price of promoting quality futures. Creating future top tax bracket workers.
    1. 21.1

       David Mac

       You reckon. It's a big task. If you have nothing better to do than pontificate on what jobs are worthy of your consideration, perhaps you could do something useful and help in the planting.

       Your song 'Don't do anything till you hear from me!'
       1. 21.1.1

          You've misread me grey, I don't want to choose the vocations.

          Nobody wants to spend their life planting baby trees. I'd rather watch TV.

          Lets plant for a week and spend alternate weeks studying the field or working with a tree harvesting gang, create paths to follow. A chance.
          1. 21.1.1.1

             This seems like a promising angle – raising the seedlings rather than planting them involves perhaps more valuable skills: https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018692048/minginui-the-town-time-forgot-is-growing
    2. 21.2

       I think the fund bankrolling a cultural facility beside the Hokianga is a superb idea. Everyone has nice scenery, it is Maori that make NZ unique.

       I can think of 20 small business ideas that could spin off such an enterprise. Individual Hapu could put down the hangi, provide the Kapa Haka show, take visitors for a paddle in a Waka.

       Too often we read of fraud associated with this type of initiative. It would be good to see some iron-clad protection. When he's back on his feet, make The Mad Butcher treasurer.
       1. 21.2.1

          Iwi can fund those ventures, not the taxpayer.

          That fact that they haven’t speaks volumes about the viability of such projects.

          Far easier to put your hand out than risk your own money.
          1. 21.2.1.1

             Yeah, not so much up here BM. NZ's largest tribe are yet to see any compensation for being royally shafted.
          2. 21.2.1.2

             It’s gonna be difficult to run a Provincial Growth Fund without assisting Māori enterprises, don’t you think?
             1. 21.2.1.2.1

                The Provincial Growth Fund is there to buy NZ First an electoral seat, that is all

                Fuck Labour for agreeing to this, 3 billion fucking taxpayer dollars given to that fat prick jones to spend as he pleases with no strings attached for whoever he decides to play Santa Claus for.

                It's bullshit and shouldn't be allowed to happen, politicians need to be held legally accountable for this sort of pork-barrel politics.
                1. 21.2.1.2.1.1

                   Your argument is idiotic. You are saying that Jones is giving money to his Maori mates to buy a Pakeha seat. Drugs i think you must be on.
                2. 21.2.1.2.1.2

                   It's enough dosh to make a valuable difference.

                   I believe Jones wants to see it used to make NZ a better place for all of us.

                   Rather than shrieking about it being pissed up against a wall…be useful.

                   What do you think Jones should be chucking a fire under?
                   1. 21.2.1.2.1.2.1

                      How about $500 million to build a Colossus of Jones statue at the mouth of the Hokianga?

                      I reckon I'd be a shoe in.
                3. 21.2.1.2.1.3

                   Thanks for answering my question so pointedly.

                   As per 31 March 2019, up to $735,962,077 has been announced in funding that will do sweet FA for growth in the regions? Each and every project is just a cover to “buy NZ First an electoral seat”? Your argument has the strength of a fart in a stormy night: pfffff – WOOSH.
                4. 21.2.1.2.1.4

                   BM, I think you're a closet leftie searching for enough reason to subscribe.

                   We all are. When we consider what matters the most to us, for nearly all of us it's our loved ones. If we accept that your loved ones are on an equal footing with my loved ones. We're Social Democrats BM.

                   It's time you came out, I'm sure your folks will be fine with it.

                   Welcome comrade, your shout.
                   1. 21.2.1.2.1.4.1

                      With my background, I should be

                      I just struggle with the snivelling pretentious liberal wankers that seem to be steering the left wing boat at the moment.

                      Fuck me, they're just so dislikable, I just can't relate to that.

                      It's a big reason why so many trade guys vote National now.
                      1. 21.2.1.2.1.4.1.1

                         Too many women in charge now, eh?
                         1. 21.2.1.2.1.4.1.1.1

                            Do you like getting dominated by females Mutton bird?

                            [Deleted – no need for this kind of language – Incognito]

                            I can see why you vote Labour.
                            1. 21.2.1.2.1.4.1.1.1.1

                               Please watch your language, BM.
                      2. 21.2.1.2.1.4.1.2

                         Those people are hard-work for virtually everyone BM, regardless of political colour.

                         Utube etc is chokka with it because it gets clicked. Click = $.

                         The vast majority of us think it should be fine to say that a woman looks great and not attract a law suit.
                      3. 21.2.1.2.1.4.1.3

                         It’s a big reason why so many trade guys vote National now.

                         Tradies vote National "now?" That's "now" defined as "Psycho Milt's entire adult life and presumably longer," is it? I know we live in the eternal now, but that's ridiculous.
                         1. 21.2.1.2.1.4.1.3.1

                            How many? So many. That many? Yup, that many and maybe even more. Wow, that’s a lot. Yup, it’s heaps and there are heaps more to come. I lost count at one …
                         2. 21.2.1.2.1.4.1.3.2

                            Some do. Particularly those who do not have a functioning business. That rely on capital gains, and WFF to subsidise their paying low wages.

                            Actual tradies, however. Are intelligent enough to know that National making their customers poorer, is not good for their job prospects.
       2. 21.2.2

          The Far North is nature's Disneyland. When Nga Puhi eventually settle for their 2 cents on the dollar I think they will evolve into an International tourism powerhouse.

          Up here, the ocean is still our back-up pantry. Peat lakes as black as Coke, packed with minerals that have made skin feel like it's 10 years old for 700 years. Up here where we're real skinny, from the car, you can say "Yep, that's the eastcoast and over there, that's the westcoast."

          On the way to where our spirits depart, where we're skinny, you'll see a pristine sandy harbour with no road access. It is packed with silica and in the sun glistens like a mass of white diamonds. Glass manufacturers the world over covet the dunes at Parengarenga.

          I think dressing up as an 1830 warrior and faking the take-over of a tourist bus on Ninety Mile Beach and leaving gifts rather than looting would be a cool school holiday job. Great confidence booster for the kid.

          I think the factions of Nga Puhi that aren't building bridges towards a settlement need to look into the eyes of their grandchildren. They're in a position to make a worthwhile difference.
          1. 21.2.2.1

             The only thing that can stop Ngā Puhi thriving as you say are the fools who can't agree how to work together.
             1. 21.2.2.1.1

                Yes, it's a melting pot of drama that needs to be sorted out before sitting across the table from Little.

                There were a lot of muskets in Northland before a sheriff arrived.

                The logical way would appear to be to include a representative from each of the conflicting factions. A united front presenting their individual concerns.
                1. 21.2.2.1.1.1

                   There have been a lot of tables sat round over years with lots of voices from all factions. There is unlikely to be a united front before Little has long gone.
             2. 21.2.2.1.2

                Too many chiefs in the North ?
          2. 21.2.2.2

             Oh dear, David Mac….wheesht! They'll all be heading to the FFN and it won't be pristine for long.
             1. 21.2.2.2.1

                Yeah, I came for a holiday, 10 years ago. Monaco for paupers.
    3. 21.3

       Perhaps sequestering carbon is quite important as well? Some folk should "Keep their breath to cool their porridge". But then some enjoy poking the borax!!
22. 22

    https://khn.org/news/hidden-fda-database-medical-device-injuries-malfunctions

    FDA Hiding Adverse Reaction Data

    The FDA has built and expanded a vast and hidden repository of reports on device-related injuries and malfunctions

    Since 2016, at least 1.1 million incidents have flowed into the internal “alternative summary reporting” repository, instead of being described individually in the widely scrutinized public database known as MAUDE, which medical experts trust to identify problems that could put patients in jeopardy.

    Yet the program, in all its iterations, has been so obscure that it is unknown to many of the doctors and engineers dedicated to improving device safety. Even a former FDA commissioner said he knew nothing of the program.

    “The public has a right to know about this,” said Dr. S. Lori Brown, a former FDA official who accessed the data for her research. She said doctors relying just on the public reports — and unaware that many incidents may be omitted — can easily reach the wrong conclusion about the safety record of a particular device.
    1. 22.1

       Who knew someone would display the downside of a new Bold button so early?
       1. 22.1.1

          Asinine comment, Sacha…

          Do you have anything productive to add about the FDA hiding adverse reaction data?

          Or did the link and information demoralize you down to the level of lashing out at use of a highlighting tool?
          1. 22.1.1.1

             If you stop doing the equivalent of shouting, more people might listen.
             1. 22.1.1.1.1

                Good grief…read or don't read…same thing to me, Sacha…

                Making excuses for yourself by projecting nonsense about a highlighting tool used sporadically as being the equivalent of shouting…is rather pathetic!
          2. 22.1.1.2

             @ One Two

             Just FYI; here at The Standard by convention the use of bolding is generally reserved for moderators in order to make their edits or actions more visible.
             1. 22.1.1.2.1

                So the bold tool can't be used in any other way ?

                If not…so be it…the various highlight options are all useful…
23. 23

    God Bless Mike Gravel
24. 24

    There's a petition to stop the mural of JA hugging a Muslim woman to be painted on a Melbourne silo! A bona fide picture for the ages.

    Jenny Davies signed and said, "Its not wanted in Australia. Nothing to do with Australia."

    I'd have agree with Jenny. Tolerance and compassion are not wanted in Australia and are nothing to do with Australia.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12225277
    1. 24.1

       I’d always thought that it was pretty standard for Oz to claim our successes as theirs!? Maybe this exception proves the rule …
       1. 24.1.1

          Someone ought to put that dozy bimbo right about where the shooter came from. Oz. And according to him it was a perfectly normal family.

          [Deleted – A little too much information about the accused and naming him is definitely not ok. I thought that had been made clear previously – Incognito]

          However Jenny Davies, who thinks that the idea is un-Australian could take PM Ardern’s place in the mural, hugging and comforting the Muslim woman, and showing how Australians have been upset and deeply moved by their fellow citizen’s deathly action.
          1. 24.1.1.1

             A gentle reminder to not name the accused. Any comment will go straight into moderation.
          2. 24.1.1.2

             I thought that copying from published info was right. And I don't see why some info now can't be released for public info. Sorry if the authorities have denied us this info, and thought that was the way to go. At this time I had thought that background should be provided. Otherwise how can some Oz bird say it is nothing to do with them. Time for some free information.
             1. 24.1.1.2.1

                By way of my personal explanation, it was decided shortly after the massacre that the accused would not be named here on TS. As you know, moderation is not open to litigation.

                A link with a short explanation or quote is usually more than sufficient; less is more and no need to copy & paste too much text with too many links (which will also automatically trigger a comment going into moderation). However, this is a special case, highly sensitive, and it is before the courts now. For lawyers and academics the name and personal history are important; for political debate here on TS they are largely irrelevant.

                TS is not a conduit for public info on people accused of hideous crimes. If people want to know they can seek out the information for themselves, e.g. by using search engines.
25. 25

    Oh crap, it's started. Planet of the Apes…

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=12225299
    1. 25.1

       Oh crap, monkey business.
       1. 25.1.1

          Not if the Aliens get us first.

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12225228

          This item amazes me. Why is it not the biggest headline everywhere.

          UFO's!
          1. 25.1.1.1

             Because the Aliens are suppressing it. Duh!

             Same article is also on Stuff, of course …
          2. 25.1.1.2

             Far too late to worry about aliens being here, but fear not, these guys aren't invading, they're just on a scheduled toilet stop on the way through to Proxima Centauri.
             1. 25.1.1.2.1

                You would say that, wouldn’t you?
                1. 25.1.1.2.1.1

                   The prime directive prevents me from further explaining why the tour brochures definitely describe the Earth as the Huntly of our trip to somewhere nice.
                   1. 25.1.1.2.1.1.1

                      Can we blame climate change on exhaust from intergalactic touring buses and waste from cosmic freedom campers? Do you ETs post your holiday pics on FB and Instagram too?
                      1. 25.1.1.2.1.1.1.1

                         Since the forced landing I don't fly any more, you'll never get me up in one of those things again (why I’m stuck here), but no pollution from us, there's just you apes and a few other primitive species still doing that – We worked out cold fusion aeons ago.

                         No facebook for us but we do have alien news desk.

                         https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9287050/
                         1. 25.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1

                            Oh, that’s disappointing because we really need somebody else to share the burden of blame with for climate change. Otherwise, the guilt would destroy us.

                            If we had AND I would still be watching TV. Instead, I roam the internet, which is where I found this: https://www.npr.org/series/tiny-desk-concerts/
                            1. 25.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1

                               I do have a soft spot for you monkey brain two legs, but you're arrogance and ignorance is often infuriating. You burn it, you own it.

                               My time travelling mate says it gets a lot worse before it gets really bad.
                         2. 25.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.2

                            One thing we are very good at is fooling ourselves and denial. I forgot what the other thing was
26. 26

    "Our choice comes down to this. Do we stop life to allow capitalism to continue, or stop capitalism to allow life to continue?"

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/25/capitalism-economic-system-survival-earth

    One of Monbiot's better musings
    1. 26.1

       That musing is a doozy. I think it should be on How to Get There so am copying it for inclusion. Thanks.

       in the 21st century there has been a recoupling: rising resource consumption has so far matched or exceeded the rate of economic growth. The absolute decoupling needed to avert environmental catastrophe (a reduction in material resource use) has never been achieved, and appears impossible while economic growth continues. Green growth is an illusion.

       Green growth is an illusion? Now we are f…..ed.
27. 27

    A piece from Chris Trotter on similarities between David Lange's government and that of Jacinda Ardern. It might shed light onto present directions

    In one respect, at least, there is a very substantial difference between the governments of Lange and Ardern. In the case of the former, the shape and direction of economic reform (thoughtfully prepared by Treasury in advance) was condensed into a single, revolutionary manifesto – “Economic Management”. In the latter case, the task of mapping the progress of government reforms has been farmed-out to a multitude of working-groups. Their combined reports will, presumably, constitute the Labour Party’s 2020 manifesto.

    Is this the explanation for Ardern’s willingness to content herself with the role of Coalition figurehead? Because she knows that her key political strength has always been to present the ideas of others in a lively and compelling fashion? How to identify the emotional potential within any given set of policies and communicate it directly to the voters? Her skill in delivering the party’s messages is very different from the old-fashioned oratorical skill of Lange. His was a twentieth century talent, hers belong to the twenty-first.

    https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/97407/chris-trotter-questions-whether-pm-jacinda-ardern-really-running-government-or-merely
    1. 27.1

       National have caused all the messs in the health bill housing shonky farming micro bovine virus many other problems when they ran the country to serve the wealthy first and formost . It does not work very well when everything is structured to suit the 00.1 % over the 99.9 % of Tangata .

       I know that rheumatic fever hits the poor common tangata hardest Maori and our Pacific cousin make the majority of those people who are affected by this disease .

       Insight – Every year, up to 200 New Zealanders die from heart damage caused by rheumatic fever – an illness wiped out in many other wealthy countries. And despite a five-year campaign to tackle the disease here, rates are once again

       There’s no record of the total number of New Zealanders affected by the rheumatic heart disease, but last year the number of new rheumatic cases was 188 – most of them children.

       It’s almost the highest figure in a decade, while in other wealthy countries like the US and the UK, the disease has been all but stamped out. What's disappointed those in public health the most is that the numbers have risen despite a five-year push to reduce the rates on the rise. Philippa Tolley reports. The DHB’s public health physician, Pip Anderson, says rheumatic fever rates have risen in the area for the last two years, despite efforts to eradicate it. She says there are questions over whether a change in the prevention programme has reduced its impact, or whether other factors such as the housing crisis had overwhelmed the ability of the health system to reduce rates. The DHB says it is in the process of reviewing its approach

       Ka kite ano P.S EQUALITY IS NEEDED. Links below.

       https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/audio/2018686731/nz-s-heart-breaker-rheumatic-fever-rates-on-the-rise

       https://youtu.be/Grlt8DnVrr0

       Treasure Our tamariki
       1. 27.1.1

          How this rheumatic fever problem isn't having everything thrown at it, like say the measles epidemic, is a matter that needs a serious study and response. I know some are working so hard and getting so discouraged and saddened that they are not able to get on top of it. I thought I would have a little look at what is happening Eco Maori. You may know more.

          I think one thing that should be introduced all over the country, like as from yesterday, is a group of roving medical vans that take to the people the testing equipment and personnel to check on health and dispense minor everyday aids and medicine. It is hard to get children to the doctor, getting transport, coping with care of others at the same time – who babysits?

          What's available – I can see a surgery bus. It seems a private-public partnership. With the breakdown of active, citizen-oriented government, perhaps this needs to be the new way of delivering health.

          (The denizens in administration in the departments fill their time with designing computer projections and finding expensive managers overseas, or organising funds for new buildings for which they choose the lowest tender and enable charlatans; result a building that requires repairs ten years in, and replacement within thirty.)

          So – http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/8467237/Mobile-surgery-brings-health-to-rural-New-Zealand

          …In early 2002, private company Mobile Health Solutions spent $5.2 million to build a specially designed 20-metre long, 39-tonne truck to show there was another way to provide day surgery to people living in rural areas.

          The country's only surgical bus has since treated thousands of people by giving them access to hundreds of specialist surgical procedures not otherwise available in their towns….

          The bus, which was funded by the Ministry of Health, now delivered about 1 per cent of the country's annual surgical workload – the same as an average operating theatre.

          https://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/hosted-content/mobile-health-delivering-more-surgery-rural-new-zealand

          Trying to find info on helping access to health care seems hard to find looking on google. I found something on rural nursing done in 1994 so I'll put the link in case it is useful.

          http://www.moh.govt.nz/NoteBook/nbbooks.nsf/0/84F52F035006C70CCC2574A2000A5468/$file/rural-nursing-aspects-of-practice-mar08.pdf

          Every area of low income, especially where there is distance from services, should have it's own buses and teams of nurses, and advanced nurses-to-doctors and good equipment, and regular routes, with some diversions to the remote, when prior appointments are sought. Is this being done now? How widely? How frequently? Embedded into the system or innovative for effect to be abandoned when the set-term funding runs out? Has there been a national govt/local iwi connection made in areas, and is it being monitored and improved, cost-wise and effectiveness-wise? Have the staff done their proper cultural training and using that basis as much as possible?

          Maori are keen to do good stuff, are there trained personnel able to bring it to the people and make a difference? Are those people then assisted to carry out schemes and feel part of a team for health, not just needy recipients? The Biggie – nice small warm cottages with all the requirements, and a cleaner/aid to do the windows and the extras as needed when difficult times have to be coped with. If there were more physical comforts, and mental rest through talking through difficulties with friendly advisors, there would likely be a huge change away from negative statistics.
28. 28

    Eco Maori backs the non violence protest to get the truth to the TANGATA ABOUT how badly climate change is affecting our poorer cosin NOW no tomorrow but NOW we can see the negative effects with our own EYEZ

    British police said 1088 arrests have been made since the main protests began. The final day of protests is focusing on the international financial sector, which has made London its home.

    "Extinction Rebellion to focus on the financial industry today," the group said in a statement. The "aim is to demand the finance industry tells the truth about the climate industry and the devastating impact the industry has on our planet."

    The group advocates non-violent civil disobedience to force governments to reduce carbon emissions and avert what it says is a global climate crisis that will bring starvation, floods, wildfires and social collapse.

    They are demanding the government declare a climate and ecological emergency, reduce greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2025 and create a citizen's assembly of members of the public to lead on decisions to address climate change.

    In 2017, total United Kingdom greenhouse gas emissions were 43 percent lower than in 1990 and 2.6 per cent lower than 2016, according to government statistics.

    The group said they will end their protests in London on Thursday and will end their blockades at Parliament Square and Marble Arch.

    However, they promised more protests in the future, saying direct action was the only way to bring the issue to public attention Ka kite ano links below P.S I had to use my phone to get this out there .????????????????????????????????

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.rnz.co.nz/article/3b688365-80d7-4c42-af02-3e338715ce64

    https://youtu.be/RwkGbuww3jE
29. 29

    Bottom Trawling for fish and dredging for shell fish is like driving a BULLDOZER to round up the sheep and cows if this was seen the real damage that these technology's do to our fish's habitats there would be a huge OUT CRY but because its out of SIGHT the money people can keep wreaking Tangaroa for short term gain of $$$£$$$££££$$$$£$$$$$$$

    The fish need a whare to and those 2 techniques are ruining there whare the out come will BE our fish stocks collapseing. No fish for the Mokopuna grandchildren NO fish for our FUTURE .

    According to the report, commercial fishing had reduced in the last decade, and 97 percent of commercially-caught fish came from stocks considered to be sustainably managed.

    However, it also said 16 percent of routinely assessed stocks were overfished in 2017 and 10 stocks were considered collapsed. The report said bycatch of protected species such as seabirds had reduced, but this was based on data from before 2016.

    Mrs Goddard said those statistics said nothing meaningful about the health of the ecosystem.

    She said this was not the latest data, with seabird capture having increased 85 percent in some fisheries in the 2017/18 fishing year compared to the previous year, including hoki, hake, ling and warehou, according to data from the Department of Conservation.

    "I think what's disappointing is it makes a bold statement in the report that bycatch is being reduced and that the number of threatened, endangered and protected marine species caught has been reduced."

    Mrs Goddard said what she had gleaned from the most recent data was that is not the case.

    Independent marine scientist Roger Grace said there were serious habitat-damaging issues such as trawling and dredging, which the report touches on, but not in great detail, so they aren't addressed effectively.

    "For the last 30 to 50 years we've been hammering the shallow and inshore habitats and smashing the natural life there to bits, and it's no longer as good for juvenile fish habitat," he said Ka kite ano links below. P.S Whanau I told you that the civil servants run the countrys they are trying to paint a rosey picture about our fisheries if we let them fool US no fish for the Mokopuna look over sea the evedince is there fisheries collapseing all over the place .

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/387817/rosy-environment-report-card-for-nz-a-greenwash-say-marine-experts

    https://youtu.be/yfk07yhH9Mg
30. 30

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute .

    https://youtu.be/5Yj4j_lZMBo

    Love is a underrated VALUE that the Papatuanukue needs
31. 31

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute

    https://youtu.be/DQLUygS0IAQ
32. 32

    Kia ora Newshub.

    Love is all we need

    There are a few people who are waving the alt right white supremacist flag in NZ.

    The Australian man who was part of the Sri Lanka attacks show ECO MAORI that the Australian are targeting the wrong people sending Kiwis to their crap camps and deporting the to A country they don't NO. NZ

    Hallys emperor penguins colony collapse show how finally balanced life is a little change can make or break LIFE. We need to take human caused climate change very seriously.

    Cortez is Eco Maori pick I have exzamed the others they have strings attached to the people who are making a mess.

    Our sports Stars help Aotearoa shine bright condolences to Collettes Whanau

    Rammi is a cool actor.

    Yes people get wild creatures without being prepared to care for them correctly. I found a crook Hawk when I was young it stayed around for a few days I just gave it food and water and let it FREE .

    Ka kite ano P.S we are there Guardians
33. 33

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

    https://youtu.be/2fOFWRqy98k
34. 34

    Eco Maori will have to stop the sandflys distracting ME from the Real threat to US. I say that is there tactics now trying there best to PISS me off they are merely little bugs in my journey in life they are trying there best to sap my MANA but in reality every move they make against me adds to my MANA I see it all over Te Papatuanukue Ka pai.

    The main threat to US human kind is Global warming

    . Some countries have profited from climate change while the same rise in average planetary temperatures has dragged down economic growth in the warmer countries.

    The gap between those groups of nations with the highest and lowest economic output per person is now around 25% larger than it would have been had there been no climate change link below

    https://physicsworld.com/a/global-warming-tips-scales-against-the-poor/

    Next is Artifical Intelligents this threat is being down play by some people but this technology will give the holders of Artifical Intelligents the POWER OF God's they will be able to do what ever they want and not be held accountable for there ACTIONS . Link below P.S I know it looks like that is the case now but they will be held accountable.

    https://youtu.be/TRzBk_KuIaM

    Waste and Consumerism is a big threat plastic can take a 1000 year to degrade need need to use biodegradable things like paper bags and cardboard make laws so stuff last 20 to 50 years not 2 to 3 years as some stuff only last that long everything has to recycled no if or buts everything has to be recycled. Ka kite ano video below.

    Equality is up there to Equality for all life to be respected equality for Wahine we have to learn to treat all our Wahine like a Queens and LISTEN to them given equal saying in the way our society are RULED .

    KA KITE ANO LINKS BELOW

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/25/the-white-house-wont-empower-women-sudans-protests-will-womens-rights-ivanka-trump-poland-argentina/
35. 35

    Eco Maori video.

    https://youtu.be/v-7v2WGiTe8
36. 36

    We must let the ruling class NO that the Way we are abuseing OUR decendints FUTURE is unlogical and unacceptable to US the 99.9 % of tangata /people Kia kaha

    The power of grassroots, widespread climate action cannot be underestimated. When ordinary people start to organise among themselves and create communities of resistance in our schools, colleges, universities and neighbourhoods, those in positions of power begin to notice. The emergent climate movements are organising people of all ages to fight for a better world and to take the necessary steps to pressure political leaders to act.

    The UK youth strikers Holly Gillibrand, George Bond and myself sat down with Greta, Jeremy Corbyn, Caroline Lucas, Vince Cable, Liz Saville-Roberts and Ian Blackford for the first climate talks of their kind in more a decade. Theresa May’s chair remained empty.

    

    'Outrage is justified': David Attenborough backs school climate strikers

    We pushed political leaders to commit to and agree upon some positive first steps to start addressing the climate crisis. Tens of thousands of young climate activists forced party leaders to acknowledge the gravity of the climate crisis, driving home the need to act urgently and collaboratively Ka kite ano links below.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/26/school-climate-strikes-success-forced-uk-politicians-healthy-planet

    https://youtu.be/QYUTM99UDc0

    Emma all governments are playing lip service to the people on the issue facing our grandchildrens FUTURES
37. 37

    We don't put down other people because they are different humans have bigger problems than that we will have a problem serviving on Papatuanukue if we don't change OUR Ways we treat Papatuanukue and her creations we will all go EXTINCT

    But Darryl Ward, an Anglican lay preacher from Paraparaumu, urged Christians to instead show love and care "for our Muslim brothers and sisters".

    Ward said Christianity had never been the "sole faith tradition" in New Zealand.

    "Māori spiritual beliefs preceded the arrival of Europeans and Christianity, and other faith traditions from overseas soon

    our Muslim brothers and sisters, or for that matter, anyone else because they worship God differently from us," Ward said he gave us two simple commandments; to love God and to love others. He also made it quite clear that it is through helping those in need that one gains eternal LIFE Ka kite ano P.S EQUALITY for all.

    https://youtu.be/LHCob76kigA
    1. 37.1

       Kia ora R&R.

       I see Mark Z is sueing someone from upper hut for minupulating there likes and dislike for monetary gain I planned to do a post on the new computer currency Ka kite ano P.S Artifical Intelligents is a topic we all need to be talking about the positive and negative about the technology
38. 38

    Kia ora Newshub .

    That's a huge fire on the highway in USA condolences to the people who lost there love ones in that crash.

    Measles is still out of control in NZ those anti vaxers and the poor people who are to stressed trying to put food on the table to get there tamariki vacancied is part of the cause.

    I have already commented on the USA politics Seen Don has helped Eco Maori Mana Wairua Ka pai But he is still a carbon man .oo.

    It logical to move more imports out side of Auckland cannot have goods stuck in a Auckland traffic jam.

    Roman? looks like a qute boy it's sad he has that illness we are fortunate not to have major sickness with OUR Mokopuna my eldest seems OK for now.

    Ka pai to the Salvation Army campaign against the people selling expensive good off the back of a truck I say the laws should be changed to stop the loan Sharks ripping the poor common person off to. I new when I backed The Salvation Army last year as being Eco Maori number 1 charity I was correct.

    I seen that they plan to use Cherynoble Russian nuclear accident sites as a green ENERGY site Ka kite ano P.S the sandflys tried their best to stuff up my video feed
39. 39

    

    This is going to be the new currency with a conscience that will make people and country's behave HUMANLY if they don't the dislike mount up and your networth goes down do good things and you get heaps of likes then your networth goes up. This can be the same for country's to. At the minute the monetary SYSTEM punishes POOR COUNTRY and PEOPLE by giving us a bad credit rating and charging the people who can least afford it huge unstainable INTREST Rates that need to reverse to change the wealthy higher interest rate and the poor common people lower interest rates .

    I know that the security for a currency system like this will have to have the best protection that can be made by people but ha from what I SEE the uneqality that is happening around Papatuanukue the Systems definitely need to change.

    Facebook alleges 'likes' were sold for commercial advantage.

    The company operated the website Likesocial.co, currently undergoing "maintenance", and IGFamous.net.

    Another of their companies, Social Envy, operates the SocialEnvy.co website.

    Facebook cited the posting of a photograph from a user with no previous Instagram followers which immediately attracted 500 likes within seconds on Likesocial.co.

    More photos from the same user achieved similar "likes" in March of this year, Facebook claimed.

    The defendants allegedly "enriched themselves at the expense of Facebook and Instagram by US$9.3m", and the media company was seeking damages of the same amount.

    Facebook claimed the behaviour was "fraudulent", and also damaged Facebook and Instagram computer systems

    Ka kite ano link below.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/112295050/facebook-seeks-us10m-damages-and-jury-trial-against-upper-hutt-trio

    https://youtu.be/Y3v7YpATsuA
40. 40

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

    https://youtu.be/hT_nvWreIhg

    I'm quite good a seeing – – – – – – people
41. 41

    Many thanks to the British Labour Party for finally making a stand on the Papatuanukue issues with human caused climate change Ka pai. We have to respect our Decendints rights to a happy healthy equal FUTURE LIFE.

    Labour will this week force a vote in parliament to declare a national environmental and climate change emergency as confidential documents show the government has spent only a fraction of a £100m fund allocated in 2015 to support clean air projects.

    Jeremy Corbyn’s party will demand on Wednesday that the country wakes up to the threat and acts with urgency to avoid more than 1.5°C of warming, which will require global emissions to fall by about 45% from 2010 levels by 2030, reaching “net zero” before 2050

    Ka kite ano P.S I see te links links below

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/27/corbyn-declares-national-climate-emergency

    https://youtu.be/nME3LLCEBb4
42. 42

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

    https://youtu.be/u9Dg-g7t2l4
43. 43

    Whanau the climate change deniers suffer from this effect they don't even understand WTF they are taking about cannot even truthfully self examination there past ACTIONS to find the negative things that they have done. They will allways only find their actions to be positive everyone else is at fault not THEE I thee I is perfect. YEA RIGHT .

    Wheeler didn’t know what he didn’t know, and that’s the cognitive engine of what’s today rued and ridiculed as the Dunning-Kruger effect. It describes what Dunning later called “the anosognosia of everyday life”; a cognitive foible in which people lack the self-awareness—and yes, in some cases, the intelligence—to objectively estimate their own ability. Or, to paraphrase John Cleese: some people are too stupid to understand how stupid they are.

    In studies of university students, Dunning and Kruger found a strong inverse relationship between actual and self-ascribed ability. Those who considered themselves competent consistently proved that they weren’t. In a test, many who ranked themselves near the 70th percentile actually scored in the 10th (intriguingly, the opposite effect expressed in smart students).

    Now, commentators and researchers are invoking Dunning and Kruger again, as they try to make sense of a raft of recent studies that have found people of strong anti-science disposition almost always understand the least about that same science

    Ka kite ano links below P.S I no a – – – – – – that suffer from this .

    https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/ignorance-is-arrogance/?source=footer

    https://youtu.be/ffjIyms1BX4
44. 44

    Kia ora Newshub .

    The person who did that in America Defend his race from what a imagined threat come on people we are all HUMANS.

    I seen that story on simons slush fund complaint lol.

    The Free Press is a must that includes social media as well free speach is a right for all people

    The flat Earthers are foolish most living things have curves there are many things that I could put out to counter their beliefs but I m not even going to waste my time .

    Kia kaha Rewa keep up the good Mahi with your strong Wahine goals hope you can beat your cancer problems

    Good on him for helping the sick Hedgehog serviving losing his quills looks like it has a Whare for life its cool showing stories like that it will teach te Mokopuna to love OUR wild life have to be careful of it quills. Ka kite ano

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