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6:00 am, February 20th, 2025 - 76 comments
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Open mike is your post.
For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.
The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).
Step up to the mike …
The Trump like attack on core NZ Public Service pay…
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/542414/public-agencies-finding-it-unaffordable-to-increase-pay-ranges
perhaps also illustrates why there is legislation pending regarding penalising “partial strikes”. The PSA on past behaviour is likely to use limited action rather than full stoppages if there is membership push back on the attack on their wages.
Some including me have long been critical of the PSA leaderships timid “Partnership” approach which is a hangover from the Tripartism school of thought. Really, public sector workers need sharp, rolling strike action to show ACT their approach is not acceptable. For years the State Sector just rolled along in a cozy wozy manner–but no more–with thousands sacked by the hard right and thousands more in NGOs with funding cuts.
Union-led pay increases under Labour were substantial sector by sector.
But after 6,000 staff were fired this term and thousands more left overseas, and full entity mergers just starting, and Treasury clearly signaling there's no money deep into the future, it's perfectly reasonable to not put your head up and appeal to be shot at by senior managers and Ministers and have what remains of your career shredded.
What should be the collective response from the relevant workers organisations is more my perspective. Individual workers making themselves a small target is understandable but ultimately futile–ACT go for public sector workers just because they are public sector workers, compliant or not.
I have a friend in the North who is a well regarded senior public servant in Iwi liaison and since the CoC Govt. his every word in every digital communication is monitored and often commented on by the Wellington people–stressful.
The NZNO is a case in point.
Their last industrial action was 8 hour strikes moving round the motu.
8 hours is nothing for management to cover.
Postpone a few appointments, put out a few press releases, do a few extra hours on the floor out of the office, job done.
For industrial action to have be meaningful they need to be at least 36 hours long. With the threat of more hours to follow directly on. This costs the bean counters money and that's what they can't abide.
Plus the workforce has changed in structure and has forgotten what industrial action means. With lots of foreign born nurses in the workforce they struggle with the action of being defiant.
As a PSA member (albeit in local government) I'd be more than happy to see the union taking a harder line and really take this government to task.
I'd even sign up for a general public sector strike if it came to it
All of this cautions, milquetoast incrementalism from the Left is as ineffective as it is boring to voters and toxic to progress.
General strikes are not legal in NZ. Nor are ‘sympathy strikes’. Workers can only strike if they are members of a union and collective bargaining talks break down, or if they believe there are serious health or safety issues at the workplace. They also need to get approval from government to strike. Unions are largely de-fanged because of this.
Then we stage one anyway.
The power of a strike doesn’t come from its legality. It comes from the sheer disruption it causes. If enough workers walk off the job, it forces those in power to respond, whether they like it or not.
Would they really arrest thousands of public sector employees? Fire everyone? The political and economic fallout would be massive. At some point, repression becomes costlier than negotiation.
If strikes were ineffective, then businesses wouldn't be so interested in regulating them. History shows that when people move together, they can force change: legal or not.
I support what you are saying but:
https://www.employment.govt.nz/fair-work-practices/unions-and-bargaining/strikes-and-lockouts/strikes
It is difficult enough to convince people to join their defanged unions. To support people through your proposed general strike would require a fund, no existing union will pay out strike funds for an illegal action or cover the cost of being sued. It's all well and good to encourage people to use their collective power but the law is setup to protect employers and the 'economy' and has been since the 4th National Government. It is all our loss that this hasn't been remedied by subsequent Labour Governments.
who would they sue in a general strike if it was organised by the unions?
The union, striking members, and non-union strikers, for loss of revenue.
A general strike organised by unions is not ever going to happen under our existing legislation.
Sorry, that was meant to say not organised by unions.
I was curious how employers would sue individual strikers.
In NZ a general strike is illegal.
Organisers will get arrest and prison.
Not a civil case.
Sorry, that was meant to say not organised by unions.
what if people just didn't go work one day?
Non-attendance without permission can be cause for a termination:
https://www.employment.govt.nz/ending-employment/abandonment-of-employment
yes, I was asking if individual strikers could be sued.
Yes.
But:
Webb, L. (1951). Trade Unions at the Crossroads: Some Lessons of the New Zealand Strike. The Australian Quarterly, 23(4), 45–56. https://doi.org/10.2307/20633391
Cheers for yr input on this arkie, in my life I have found it is handy to have folk that operate from the head, especially when those of us that work from the heart get excited.
Just to clarify, is a 'general strike' the open ended option that I was eluding to?
As opposed to the recent down tools actions by nursing workforce.
The recent Nurses strike was while negotiating an expired employment contract.
Strikes and lockouts for that reason, are specified in current legislation.
Chur KJT, helps explain the current tactic of taking Te Whatu Ora to court.
(It feels subversive to type that, heh, Luxon's New Zealand.)
Thanks gsays, no, a general strike is usually understood to be a multi-sector strike, generally aiming to involve most workers in the labour force and usually for political or social goals rather than strictly relating to a collective bargaining as is the requirement for legal strikes in NZ. What you describe is an extended strike, and I would argue that it's not just recent immigrants, our laws prevent unions from most industrial actions unfortunately.
I figure my point stands which aligns with what TM was saying.
During the pay round when they went on strikelets, they could have gone a lot more aggressively.
Another key difference with yestyyear and now is the likes of Givealittle where the workers can be supported financially by the public.
Yes, it's not just the timidity of the unions or members that prevents more effective industrial action, it's also the laws of the land.
There is a long and inspiring history of organised labour, both here and Australia. It is not repeated enough that 8 hour days, weekends, minimum wages etc. are victories of the labour movement and winning them included people breaking the law.
Modern support systems like givealittle are good but it is a great shame that we must rely on online philanthropy rather than face-to-face community support. A consequence of the atomised, alienated lives we often find ourselves in, which itself is because of the loss of labour power. A viscous circle. A downward spiral.
Got to say, I'm heartened that this thread did come to life (workers, wages, organising etc).
There is far too much attention and energy wasted with concern about Trump, Elon, Putin etc rather than the left getting it's shit correct and sorted fir the election.
Well said!
same, I’ve learned things, and appreciated the exploration and people sharing knowledge.
Unless it is for one of the few legal reasons for striking in NZ, an individual is breaking the law.
Just being absent from work without a reason, is grounds for dismissal.
And if you give a general strike as the reason, it is illegal.
Nothing really, at worst perhaps a verbal warning, to fire someone for unexplained absence which is techincally regarded as abandonment. The absolute minium for that is 3 days and as an employer you have to make genuine attempts to contact the employee and not have any response whatsoever.
Had to go down that path once as a manager was quite rhe procvess.
so general strikes that last less than three days wouldn't result in legal firings.
The 1979 general strike in New Zealand was a 24-hour protest against government interference in a drivers' award. It took place on September 20, 1979.
How it happened
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=1979+general+strike
https://teara.govt.nz/files/p-20504-nzh.jpg
The government agreed to refer the drivers’ dispute to the Arbitration Court, which upheld the original agreement.
https://teara.govt.nz/mi/strikes-and-labour-disputes/print
It been raised many times before both here and a lot wider, but after this weeks events there must be no doubt that Trump is a Russian asset, a sleeper, in the language of Le Carre et al. An asset initially engineered decades ago and sheparded through the years by Putin and his cabal. The “ peace talks” in the Middle East looked like nothing more than Russians talking to Russians, a farce in an area that has been subject to centuries of similar farces, manipulation and gerrymandering.
Yeah. Been thinking that for a while now. Also Trump verges on certifiable stupidity, and that is equally dangerous. Not only is he being manipulated by Putin, he is also being manipulated by Musk. Both evil. Bonhoeffer's theory of stupidity is now playing out.
IMHO there is now only one solution to this world crisis. The republican party has to grow a pair and impeach Trump on subversion.
In some alternate reality? Extremely unlikely to happen in this one.
There are signs of some misgivings within the more sane members of the GOP. The overall support for the GOP has been in slow but consistent decline in recent years. This current disruptions in the US, (eg the canning of support for solar has hit the mid west states hard) and the substantial change in direction in International relationships – particularly the toadying up to Russia – is not going down well with a majority of the population.
The current Republican party….Future/alternative GOP might be a new one, with some ? Or not.
Certainly no good will come with a trump Amerika….
In Trump World the other parts of government are throwaway.
Trump has already brought in his backers legislative agenda, overriding the Republican leader of the Senate.
'Trump blindsides Senate Republicans by endorsing rival House budget plan'. By fiat, of course.
The 20th C era governance team sees Trump as an apostate.
Some expect it to lead to a divorce between Europe and the USA.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/19/trump-russia-ukraine-reagan-republicans
I tend to agree. Trump hates inter-nation agreements, free trade groups, economic and political and security unions of equals – he wants an order of the powerful over the weak and sees himself and Putin as the tough guys who can do deals at the expense of others. He sees Netanyahu in that orbit. Modi and Jinping will seek to join that cartel.
Two points – IMO
First, I don't think Trump has the brain to be a 'sleeper' for the Kremlin. He comes across as an incredibly naive buffoon with a messiah complex, who can be played by anyone who tells him how great he is!
Second – after Trump's latest brain farts over Ukraine, I think we need to seriously question remaining in 5 Eyes. If the world is about to enter a new Cold War, and if America has 'switched sides' (though quite how that works out I can't figure) then we'd be best to stay right out of it all. 11.30 mins long
I agree with both your points, Tony. I just suspect there are other relevant points involved so I'm using the agnostic sceptic combo & will rush to judgment like others here when another one shows up…
I doubt he's a sleeper, just a wheeler dealer that's got to the top of the heap, and looking for a big payoff that gives him a place I in history and a legacy for the trumplets.
I linked a Guardian article the other day on google and US tech's involvement, using ai and cloud computing in Israel's destruction of Gaza.
Associated Press have an in-depth backgrounder..
People at google lost their jobs when they challenged the ethics of google’s actions.
Americans are finding Trump to be worse than feared.
https://www.rawstory.com/king-trump/
And given DOGE has not really found savings t0o afford the Trump/GOP tax cuts
Federal funding suspended for
The fate of Americans in the GOP budget.
https://arkansasadvocate.com/2025/02/19/repub/u-s-senate-dems-issue-warning-on-massive-cuts-to-medicaid-predicted-in-gop-budget/
Trump's approval rating has dropped to 44% – down from 47% on Inauguration day.
This latest rant could see some of the more sane GOP pollies will wake up to the chaos they have let loose, and they see their chance of re-election disappearing. We live in Hope.
It will not fall below 50% again … the GOP will get done in Congress in 2026. And be in whose that guy we used to know mode by the 2028 elections.
Everyone (well nearly everyone) seems to have staked the farm on the 2026 mid-terms. But will they (a) get held at all, (b) be free of voter intimidation and/or deregistration, or (c) be allowed to declare a valid result that doesn't suit the techbros?
The Dems could put a drover's dog up for president in 4 years and it would romp home.
Closer to home, New Plymouth city council has declined to impose Simeon Brown's new increased speed limits outside schools.
'New Plymouth Mayor Neil Holdom told an extraordinary council meeting the move was baffling. "This is a bit of policy that is ideologically-driven nonsense. There is no scientific basis for these moves whatsoever."…implementing variable speed limits outside all 27 affected schools in the district would cost $920,000…NPDC currently had no budget for the changes in its annual plan and as yet NZTA had not committed any funding for installing the new speed limits.'
Wouldn't be surprised if other councils follow suit.
Another councillor said in the meeting: ' "I resent that a Government which campaigned on localism is making us go against the wishes of the vast majority of our community. I resent that this Government is forcing us to do something that is not supported by any data or any evidence or any experts."
Bravo !
Minature browns already moved on to do a rinse/repeat in health where ideology will win as logic/evidence/facts will remain inconvenient.
Brilliant….I think the Nats are surprised at the widescale opposition to their dumb speed limit changes.
Some votes in this across the country.
Nostalgia freaks yearning for a return to ideological warfare have an emerging basis for hope in US politics: https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2025/02/19/white-house-bureaucrats-opposing-trumps-purge-undermine-democracy/
Like Samson shattering the Philistine temple by pulling on his chains and pulling out the stone columns they were attached to, they might have reminded everyone.
Mere posturing unless a constitutional law prof opines that they seem to have a viable legal case for prosecuting. Nonetheless, establishment media in fairyland are floating this scenario on the basis of an ideological threat to democracy. Is it any different to competing heresies in christianity? Not yet. The establishment must find a public intellectual capable of presenting inexorable reasoning to validate their stance, and paranoid alarm-raising seems pointless without a call to action.
out of curiosity, do you know what Breitbart is?
Yes. It is alerting us to the problem of unaccountable bureaucrats who act on behalf of their covert agenda, to defeat the antique left/right framing of politics. That's my take on the deep state scenario which became evident back in the 1980s…
This is how others see it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breitbart_News
No apparent relevance to the point though, eh? Whatever agenda the owners may have, or the managers may conform to, remains tacit since they don't make it explicit. So we look at issues and situations to discern what motivates stances.
I'm as concerned as anyone else by any threat of fascism, but it's in our common interests to be able to see if the operational policy of a govt is ruled by that or by pragmatic opportunism which can be blended with principle if the situation seems suitable for such sophisticated politics. The evidence currently inclines me toward the latter view. If you recall the Gulf of Tonkin incident, the lag until public acknowledgement of culpability by the US govt, you may consider that public servants are entrained by a cult of secrecy. I'm into transparency.
It is explicit to everyone else.
The point wasn't about your original comment, it was do you understand what Breitbart is? They're not going to put a Swastika on their website banner. But there are other ways of understanding.
My point re the deep state was the bipartisan basis of the concern. See this instance here: https://unherd.com/newsroom/keir-starmer-is-taking-on-the-deep-state/
But they are in pre-panic mode. Starmer needs to get the people onside. The enemy within has always operated with the tacit collusion of both left and right. That complacency seems to be evaporating…
that's not what I meant. I meant what is as an organisation?
I only go by the wiki, which tells anyone that it is a news media platform: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breitbart_News
I would also include that it is partisan. That I see as an essential design element. The wiki also tells us it is a network, which makes it an influential player in our global media landscape along with dozens of others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_news_channels
To seem fully informed, so as to generate an overview, there's usually a few key options people go to. To transcend group-think, it's best for our mental health if we scan all the key players in the game on issues of salience…
Pretty legal.
https://www.1news.co.nz/2025/02/20/govt-warned-fast-track-bill-broke-rules-in-benefiting-business/
Would a new regulatory framework have prevented the Fast Track Bill. And if not, what is its purpose? And if so, why did ACT support the Fast Track legislation?
No, the regulatory bill as proposed by ACT would have embraced it. The regulatory bill proposes to replace the current process of government and ministries who consult with all stakeholders in developing regulations with a regulation 'fast-track' Board appointed by politicians. More 'efficient'.
BHN (from 6.30 min) interview Simon Wilson on his column Luxon's Long Slow Walk to Oblivion.
Wilson: ' To my thinking, luxon had the easiest year he could
possibly have had and yet he didn’t manage to make any kind of difference at all. Now surely he’s going to be in trouble.’
And also:
‘One of the things that you can see from the polls is that concentrating on the things that they think will grow their bases isn't working. They're not in any significant way stronger than they were when at election time last year. So David Seymour and his treaty principles Bill Shane Jones and his rampant 'drill baby drill', and demonization of the greens and so on, that NZF and particularly ACT have gone all in on the things that they think will grow their bases and it's not really moving the dial for them.'
Apparently The Treaty Principles Bill was not a bottom line for ACT in coalition!
In coalition talks, sorry. Which may have turned out to be self-inflicted wounds, possibly fatal, for both Luxon and Seymour.
Luxon has had to manage 0 crises.
Ardern was on her 4th by now.
Luxon is delivering worse government than Ardern's first term.
Luxon is just a shit weak Prime Minister.
He doesn't seem to be able to think on the fly without a written script, while having the self-awareness of a gnat. How he was ever a competent manager, let alone a CEO, is beyond me.
A long term weakening of the economy is occurring, not just at the governance capability level, but also system wide.
https://archive.li/ZbzBN#selection-4199.0-4199.108
Yes we needed to be attracting kiwis back home not forcing them to leave.
I heard of a surgeon deciding to retire to Oz because they believe our system will not be able to care for them when the time comes.
Its a deliberate gutting so the fire sales can continue and things keep breaking to suit their narrative.
Lprents experience with the RSS feeds being another example of breaking what was working.
Why is Trump undermining this funding?
Is it this?
https://www.theregister.com/2025/02/19/trump_layoffs_nist/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=bluesky
Toll roads – user pays model, from Tauranga to nationwide.
Or not. A more effective PT system, a Basin Reserve upgrade and some congestion charging and no new tunnel is required.
Maybe a second term Wayne Brown and in house AT could take note.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360586976/why-tauranga-home-toll-roads-and-your-city-next
Oh wonderful
New Zealand is going onto another bad boy led nation list.
One of the Financial Action Task Force (FATF)
Paris Accord
UNDRIP
https://archive.li/YJimq#selection-3983.0-4074.1
Great reporting by the journalist. More ideologically based decisions breaking well-functioning laws.
Telescreens only.
The State Department has ordered the cancellation of all news subscriptions deemed “non-mission critical,” according to internal email guidance viewed by The Washington Post. The move aligns with the Trump administration’s crackdown on media companies that count the U.S. government as paying customers.
[…]
A Friday memo directed procurement teams at embassies and consulates to prioritize the termination of contracts with six news organizations in particular: the Economist, the New York Times, Politico, Bloomberg News, the Associated Press and Reuters.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/style/media/2025/02/18/state-department-news-subscriptions-trump-media-crackdown/
https://archive.li/kzKV6
Deep state, huh..
Short-hand for 'I don't trust the role of public service machinery', without considering the reality of the inertia inherent in bureauratic organisations.
In Starmer's case, the UK civil service has resisted government initiatives since forever. From The Independent on this topic : 'As…Tony Blair’s chief of staff and now Starmer’s national security adviser, put it: “When you arrive in Number 10 and pull on the levers of power, you discover they are not connected to anything.” '. Not helped by 14 years of incompetent Tory government.
Bureaucratic inertia, however, is not the same as an evil cabal with its tentacles throughout the public service, claims 'deep state' conspiracy thinking makes. Just the usual petty departmental silo-building and back-scratching with the private sector probably accounts for 80% of poor press.
I can see why 50% of people in the US might believe it, though, despite being debunked. Many career members of Congress seem to be quite corrupt.
You can also find on wikipedia – the story of the HUAC era activities of MK Ultra Mind Control and Project Monarch of the CIA, COINTELPRO of the FBI and illegal NSA spying – as per the Church Committee (1975).
And the story of WMD and Iraq, the Patriot Act watchlist numbers going through exponential growth and Homeland Security Fusion Centre oversight.
Quite apart from Snowden's expose, Congress passing a law to make Bush's illegal actions legal after the fact, the attempt to silence Assange – there is much worse, that if anyone sought to expose it, they would not be known of.
AI is allowed to say this.
One would have to be on a Church Committee to be allowed to have any idea.
The deep state conspiracy however seems to focus more on the social and environmental arms of the US public service. International meddling black ops are part of US MO, and even internal monitoring of citizens
But to for deep state cabals to be involved in state government agencies such as Medicaid, the Environmental Protection Agency, the CDC, and even the Forestry Service? Only if you are a white supremacist, an ultra-libertarian, a christian nationalist, a climate denier or a wellness mom. Oh wait, that is 50% of the US.
What we have is a Ferengi government.
Profit before people.