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6:00 am, January 7th, 2025 - 47 comments
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Open mike is your post.
For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.
The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).
Step up to the mike …
Palestinian government copies Israel with media clamp-down:
Due to reporting Hamas views, apparently. Palestinian factionalism is quite a thing too.
Looks like none of the protagonists trust each other to honour the agreement: that Chinese govt official report of the achievement of Palestinian unity is being contradicted by subsequent events. The governance of Palestine is based on a fractured state mostly recognised by other countries as sovereign, while realpolitik provides ongoing factions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Palestine
The factions are listed here.
https://jessemarks.substack.com/p/palestinian-factions-meet-in-china
The Fatah faction of the PLO, lead by PA President Abbas, is obviously seeking Israeli consent to be on the ground in Gaza on IDF withdrawal.
Hamas (74)
Opposition (58)
PLO (50) Fatah (45) PFLP (3) DFLP (1) PPP (1)
PNI (2)
Third Way (2)
Independents (4)
are those in the PLC (last election 2006).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Legislative_Council
This schism goes back a long way.
Palestinian nationalists look to the conservative Muslim ruling elites in neighbouring Arab countries as their natural allies, only to be betrayed again and again.
This has been the PA position.
Hamas originally founded as a Muslim religious charity, is closer to the Arab street.
These differences were starkly highlighted during the Syrian civil war..
Hamas backed the popular resistance to the Assad regime and paid a price for it.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20250106-assad-regime-executed-dozens-of-hamas-members-without-trial-report-reveals/
The PA backed Assad, Palestinian mercenaries aligned with the PA helped Assad put down the rebellion.
https://inkstickmedia.com/what-does-assads-collapse-mean-for-syrias-palestinian-armed-groups/
The Arab Street
From Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
The PA's courting of the Muslim elites has led the PA to become isolated from the Arab Street. As well as being reliant on the right wing rulers of the neighbouring Arab countries, the PA is also dependent on the Israelis, as a result many Palestinians regard the PA as a junior client of Israel.
25 year veteran Al Jazeera journalist Shireen Abu Akleh, was a Palestinian icon even before she was murdered by an Israeli sniper in May 2022 while doing her job covering an Israeli raid. At her funeral procession her mourners were beaten with clubs by the Israeli police. Since Shireen's death at the hands of the Israelis, murals of her image have sprung up across the West Bank and in Gaza.|
The PA was already isolated and despised by many Palestinians, even before the banning of Al Jazeera, this move will only make it worse.
As Dennis Frank notes at the top of this thread, the PA is copying in the West Bank what the Israelis are doing in Israel proper.
From the Times of Israel:
Interesting Yanis Varoufakis.
Star Trek: A humanist communist manifesto for our times – UNHERD – Yanis Varoufakis
Of course the federation is a Humanist Free Communist society. Not an Authoritarian Communist Oligarchy.
Contrasted with the Ferangi. A "winner takes all" Capitalist society.
you post is up top now, would be great if people could comment over there,
https://thestandard.org.nz/interesting-yanis-varoufakis/
Ta
When the personal is political, you get boundary issues:
That would have required sufficient finesse from Helen Clark, who was PM & Labour leader at the time. To what extent does her failure reflect a personal antipathy could be germane in explaining it. Media reportage featured tacit acceptance of the necessity of evading relevant basic principles of stake-holding: too hard was the standard default. He's right that separatism was a mistake for Labour but I suspect Helen won't apologise.
Hipkins must now contemplate his leadership stance. Willie has too much mana to ignore. Any formal apology ought to address the guts of the issue that caused Turia's resignation – particularly the moral dimension and our collective rights. Commons ethos is shared, whilst tradition divides Maori from Pakeha on a shared rights based..
Three Prime Ministers attended her tangi — English, Hipkins, and Luxon. Unfortunately they were banned from speaking. Clarke would have known she was auto-banned due to mysogny… or maybe she was just unable to attend.
Getting 3 ex-PMs turning up testifies to the mana of the woman, eh? I never met her back in the mid-1960s when she lived in a house in our cul-de-sac in Wanganui East but my mother did become friends with her and told me about a particular conversation when I was 15 or 16.
"I was talking with that nice young Maori woman again and she told me she was considering going into politics. I told her she ought to!" My mum was in the Wanganui chapter of Altrusa (a global women's organisation) and served as president a year later. About a decade back I wrote to Tariana reminding her of this conversation while suggesting that it was time for her & Pita to transcend their current fraught situation in TMP by switching leadership (which they did). Tariana sent me a letter in reply which I've kept, acknowledging her friendship with Mum and expressing a few warm feelings. Sometimes such serendipitous contacts alchemise cultural developments – all part of our common humanity.
"3 ex-PMs"?
Tell us more – Seymour's palace coup running ahead of schedule?
Ah, correction valid. I ought not tacitly file Lux into the has-been category too soon…
"3 ex-PMs". Well I see English and Hipkins were there but who is the third "ex-PM" to be present? Was Bolger there? I can't see any of the others bothering to attend where they were clearly not going to be allowed to speak.
Edit. DMK. snap!
Arguably, politics is preventing, mitigating, resolving, balancing, correcting, and compensating conflict and disputes in mutually agreed and non-violent ways. Most of your comment is moot and redundant, as per usual.
It was not a mistake to note that a Maori first position did not belong in Labour, but in an independent party.
Clark has nothing to apologise for. Nor Turia in leaving.
Public domain commons is a Labour default setting, that Maori have their article 2 claims is also on point.
It also lead to National accepting whanau ora and UNDRIP being signed (and the end of the Brash within National campaign against Maori seats).
It was not a mistake to note that a Maori first position did not belong in Labour
I don't recall her advocating Labour adopt any such position, so maybe that's your take on her stance at the time. Indigenous people came first, as a general principle, but that doesn't mean privilege via Te Tiriti over & above what the courts have ruled, does it? Perhaps you could clarify…
More so in retrospect. But Clark was seeking caucus loyalty, while Turia wanted Labour to adopt the pro Maori position.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/clark-and-turia-still-on-a-rocky-road/YSAVCJXK5YMSUGERKKW5QTFHBM/
Labour wanted to determine the outcome of the foreshore and seabed ownership, Turia wanted the court process, as per customary title (rights).
Later that Labour government did not support signing UNDRIP 2007-2008.
https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/23-10-2017/why-maori-need-an-apology-from-the-new-labour-government
"haters and wreckers" requires an apology.
Now, to whom?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/clark-and-turia-still-on-a-rocky-road/YSAVCJXK5YMSUGERKKW5QTFHBM/
From my recollection, both Clark and Turia felt betrayed by the other. It was as simple as that. My understanding from a former Labour MP: the Labour Govt. decided to go with legal advice which was to more or less 'leave things as they are'. I don't recall the actual details. Turia not unnaturally saw it as a smack in the face for Maori.
It was one of those occasions where you were damned if you did and damned if you didn't. I had sympathy for both sides.
So does calling Jacinda Ardern a "Nazi" on RNZ………
From the link:
That tells me Turia was a bit of a conspiratorialist. She also accused Helen Clark of deliberately setting her up when she was Prime Minister. That was the occasion she wanted to slip out of Premier House after meeting with Clark unseen by the waiting press gang. Helen told her to get down on the floor of the car. Clark didn't know a press photographer would run up to the moving car and take a photo of her on he floor. According to Turia at the time, she did know.
Yes. she deserves all the accolades for what she did for her people, but that doesn't mean she didn't have some big faults too.
I don't agree with Willie Jackson. Helen Clark did or said nothing to Tariana Turia which warrants an apology.
Helen Clark did or said nothing to Tariana Turia which warrants an apology.
Then why is Willie asking for one?? Whether Hipkins supports him depends on any objective evidence as basis, and you may be right that there ain't none, but Willie doesn't have a track record as a showboater so perhaps he represents a general Maori political view on the saga.
Or it could be personal antipathy & the story about the set-up provides a plausible reason (even if bizarre) – but that isn't objective evidence. We'll await other Maori views of his suggestion, I guess, and if they aren't forthcoming Hipkins will likely ignore it…
Turia made the claim during a TV interview. I remember it. One of those mouth dropping moments when you think… she's got to be kidding. So your lack of 'objective evidence' doesn't stack up well.
I heard that interview live with Karyn Hay and she specifically asked Tariana Turia if she really thought Jacinda was a Nazi….and she replied yes……what was reported in the Herald is not verbatim…..RNZ had it on file……….just saying…
not quite,
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/lately/audio/2018831004/no-confidence-in-ardern-dame-tariana-turia
This story?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/turia-blames-pm-for-humiliating-car-ride/VPHG6OJVJWJKGYQM5GNPVP62WM/
That's the one Incognito.
Interesting Helen Clark did not tell her to get down on to the seat. I only saw a TV interview. It would have been TV1 and, not surprisingly, they went with Tariana's claim she had been told to "get down on the seat or the floor – not sure which.
"Helen Clark did not tell her to get down on to the seat"
No Helen Clark says that she did not tell her to do so. Tariana says that Helen Clark did just that.
Who you believe is up to you but they can't both be right. You choose to believe Helen. I happen to believe Tariana on this occasion. We are never going to be sure though are we?
Well then what do you think your belief is worth…in the big picture….I would say zero on this platform….I know that I am sure of what I am sure of……
wow, that explains quite a lot about Turia, that she sees socialism as akin to fascism. Remarkable.
If you ever get the opportunity to talk with Karyn Hay you can ask her what was spoken live…….what is apparent is how misinformed Tariana was and her conflating progressive socialism with Nazism and the seabed/foreshore protest with a global pandemic, which is akin to wartime and warrants strict response to save lives, says a lot about now easily some people are suckered into the realms of conspiracy theories………Tariana has passed on now and may her soul rest in peace…..
In 2005 leading the Maori Party contesting the election, she followed the example of Matiu Rata (former Maori Affairs minister), who left Labour to form Mana Matuhake in 1980. It later became part of the Alliance (till 2005, but Alliance was an empty shell after the 2002 election).
Hone Harawira left the Maori Party to form the Mana Party/Mana Movement in 2011. They merged back into the Maori Party in 2020.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mana_Movement
The right wing opine articulated here, not just the bill, but C of C do over of the Treaty in legislation.
Typically its
The elephant too big for some to see, a treaty involves two parties.
The 2nd article refers to chieftainship over their lands, not just property rights.
The UN defers to the wording of treaties in the indigenous language.
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/taxpayers/pages/13204/attachments/original/1736115626/Ruth_Richardson_-_Treaty_Principles_submission.pdf?1736115626
yup, the English version is just a draft for english speakers. Rangatira signed the Maori version. "Co-governance" is what was signed up for.
Really good to see Starmer and now Macron pushing back hard today against the lies from Musk.
2025 really is going to be a fight to the death for active democracy, so it's great to see the voices of those remaining leaders still sticking it right back.
Musk is crazier, and more dangerous, than Trump. Hopefully they destroy each other.
I wonder if astroturf armies have been busy swamping the system while others have been too distracted to bother.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/538358/unprecedented-number-of-submissions-on-treaty-principles-bill
Just so long as they're all counted
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK2411/S00636/dont-be-misled-every-submission-counts-for-the-treaty-principles-bill.htm
Melanie Nelson has written a detailed guide on how to make a submission on the Regulatory Standards Bill but suggests that some of it can be transferred to a submission on the Treaty Principles Bill.
https://melanienelson.substack.com/p/will-the-regulatory-standards-bill
For a simple (!) guide on making a submission, go here: OK fine, what submissions do I have to make FFS?! By Emily Writes.
Thanks. I did submitted in opposition to the Treaty Principles Bill today and am planning to start on the Regulatory Standards Bill. I had been thinking I will have some overlap in submissions to the 2 Bills.
In my opinion, the Regulatory Standards Bill is the more dangerous one also because it’s more likely to get support from ACT’s coalition partners beyond the Select Committee stage.
It looks that way. The content of articles you linked to in your post on this Bill were pretty convincing.
It's very worrying, along with the current goings on in the US: Trump's post election maneuverings, his buddy Elon Musk looking like he's trying to influence politics & elections in other countries. It feels like plutocrats internationally making a big power grab.
Yes, exactly. The Regulatory Standards Bill will remove many hurdles & regulations for Money Men from anywhere to set up and/or buy up business and/or property. It’ll open the door in NZ to global feudalism of unprecedented scale with Stasi-like powers through their increasing control of technology and influence on the internet and how it’s used.
Agree. Very worrying indeed.
Yes. And the meejah are helping it along – perhaps as a result of a few words having been whispered into certain ears – by virtually ignoring it, and diverting all their coverage to the increasingly nugatory Treaty Principles Bill (reaction to which, however, has the advantage – to them – of generating lots of colourful images and quotes).