Open Mike 27/01/2017

Written By: notices and features - Date published: - 109 comments
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109 comments on “Open Mike 27/01/2017”

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  1. 1

    Is there method to his madness?
    By provoking Mexico over the wall, will Trump’s administration be looking for action by its southern neighbour that will provide an excuse for ripping up NAFTA?

    1. 2.1

      Yep, it’s about having standards and how we’re now consistently lowering them in pursuit of trade.

  4. 4

    Interesting article about housing by Liam Dann.
    It would appear from reading it that.

    a. the Australian banks have become jittery about the housing bubble
    b. funding for building housing is very tight

    When will the bubble burst?
    Bill English will want an election before it does.
    Was this the reason our Merrill Lynch trader ex PM resigned last year? Did his previous experience tell him to leave before the crash?

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11789453

    2. 4.2

      yes Paul there is a number of reasons he resigned what about the 2 large SHA agreements with the big Chinese consortium are they going to bring their own workers will they apply our laws and where will these workers live in Auckland how is immigration going to be managed and why aren’t we building them ourselves . And I don’t want to hear the same old lame excuses we don’t have enough builders as we have known this for 8 years not good enough.

      Also the 7.5 million already given to the Clinton Foundation by uncle John disgusting and now Uncle Bill is giving them another top up of 5.5 million of our tax payers monies a total of 13 million this has to be stopped and the best solution is to get rid of these crooks and liars

    1. 5.1

      I agree.
      Trimp’s bombastic language towards China is very worrying.
      I wonder what time the clock showed during the Cuban missile crisis in 1962?

      1. 5.1.1

        I think the Cuban Missile Crisis had come and gone before the Bulletin’s board had a chance to convene. At that stage it was 7 minutes to midnight, but the steps taken by the superpowers in the aftermath to prevent it happening again lowered it to 12 minutes to midnight the following year.

  6. 6

    Brian Fallow. The TPP is dead.

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11788698

    In this article these 4 paragraphs stand out.
    It is rare indeed to read an honest indictment of neoliberalism in the MSM.
    The world is changing.

    “They could be seen as evidence that we are in the degenerate terminal phase of a particular economic paradigm or doctrine – neoliberalism or market fundamentalism – which has prevailed since the mid-1980s.

    There is a life cycle to these things. But just as the post-war model (which delivered faster and more inclusive economic growth than we have seen since) had by the late 1970s decayed into stagflation and over-regulation, the current regime is now delivering intolerable levels of inequality, poverty and financial insecurity.

    It is patronising to dismiss the millions who voted Leave or Trump as the dupes of mendacious politicians who don’t know what is good for them, but will be set straight by the bitter disappointment ahead.

    Rather, they should be seen as evidence that for too many people the status quo is not a rising tide that lifts all boats, but an ebb tide leaving them and their communities stranded.”

    1. 6.1

      Well, bugger me.

      Somebody gets it.

      Paul, thanks for posting this. You can always be relied on to find these gems, and I’ll take this opportunity to also thank you for posting links to some of the best documentaries I never knew existed.

        1. 6.1.1.1

          @ Paul (6.1.1) … You are doing an excellent job finding and keeping the relevant issues out there.

          Don’t worry about the knockers giving you stick. Your efforts are much appreciated by many, including myself.

      2. 6.1.2

        I’ll take this opportunity to also thank you for posting links to some of the best documentaries I never knew existed.

        Yes, yes, well said Rosemary 😀 Thanks Paul

    2. 6.2

      But is the answer socialism or tweaking neo liberalism, I think the former and here is the quandry for the left and many here people don’t want to roll back to a failed 20th century experiment as the solution

      1. 6.2.1

        The answer is to get rid of the rich and capitalism. Need to reform our corrupt financial system as well.

          1. 6.2.1.1.1

            Oh, it will happen. It’s just a question if we wake up and do the intelligent thing and get rid of them in a controlled manner or they destroy society again.

    3. 6.3

      Strangely enough some of the best articles are to be found in the Business section. When it comes to lots of issues, tax housing etc, they are a lot more upfront and honest in their commentary.

      2. 7.2.2

        Will we continue to align ourselves with a nation so overtly fascist and imperialist?

        As long as National is in charge – yes.

        National, being authoritarian, always kowtow to those with more power.

        1. 7.2.2.1

          TRump is exactly what the Republican Party is. They have removed Obama Care. They have abused Congress and the Senate. They refuse to reveal what Tax they do not pay. They do not give a fig for the Common man.

          The National Party here is an exact if lazy Copy of the Republican Party USA. Self centered. Abusive towards citizens (ref : English and Key 2016 condemning Kiwis saying they are totally useless). They do not reveal their Tax payments or omissions. They blatantly deny there is a housing need. Ref the Deputy PM.

          They do not give enough resources for Health. Or for Education (except to their own chosen Private Schools). They slag off Teachers.

          They give Tax Havens to Immigrants and Wealthy foreign Avoiders.

          They provide slum conditions for the poor and homeless throughout New Zealand.
          They sell our Assets to their grubby mates.

          1. 7.2.2.1.1

            What absolute bollocks. National would comfortably sit within the Democratic Party as would all political parties in NZ

    3. 7.3

      Another view is that all of this irrelevent stuff is just distraction that media bite hook line and sinker, further empowering trumps agenda to remove media as an impartial fourth estate, similar outrage from loon protests, hollywood melt downs all pushing middle america closer to trump

      1. 7.3.1

        ,

        further empowering trumps agenda to remove media as an impartial fourth estate

        Do you really think these pricks need to be empowered?.

        “The media should be embarrassed and humiliated and keep its mouth shut and just listen for awhile,” Steve Bannon said during a rare interview with The New York Times on Wednesday.

        “I want you to quote this,” Bannon told the Times. “The media here is the opposition party. They don’t understand this country. They still do not understand why Donald Trump is the president of the United States.”

        http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/26/media/bannon-media-nytimes/index.html?sr=twCNN012617bannon-media-nytimes0956PMVODtopPhoto&linkId=33823996

    4. 7.4

      You need to question the mentality of a nation thats elected reagan/george w TWICE and now the donald.

      You get the leader you deserve mostly, go back and watch johnston ross’s Americana docos from the 90’s and its not hard to see how easily led they are by knowing their key concerns….guns, religion, the fairytale known as ‘the american dream’ etc

  8. 8

    I see it reported this morning that Theil was granted NZ residency under the Labour Government in 2006. Is that correct?

    If yes, I reckon Iain Lees-Galloway has been barking up the wrong tree. As usual.

    1. 8.1

      Apparently he was. He then failed to live here for more than 70% of the time as required by the rules but still got citizenship.

      1. 8.1.1

        I don’t know what the rules were in 2006. But the current rules for residence as investor, are these:

        After residence is approved

        For the Investor Plus Category you’ll need to keep your investment funds in an acceptable investment for three years. You’ll also have to spend at least 44 days in New Zealand each year in years two and three of your three-year investment period.

        For the Investor Category you’ll need to keep your investment funds in an acceptable investment for four years. You will also have to spend at least 146 days each year in New Zealand in years two, three and four of your four-year investment period.

        Investor visa requires $1.5mnzd Invested for 4 years in NZ [plus time lived per year in NZ plus some other requirements.

        Investor plus visor requires $10mnzd Invested for 3 years – 44 days in NZ in each of the last 2 years of a 3 year investment period.
        No additional requirements.

        1. 8.1.1.1

          The 70% was from an article I read a couple of days ago.

          That said, I don’t think that there should be an investor category. It’s skills we need and we’ve got all the money we need to do anything we want with our resources.

    2. 8.2

      No, Iain Lees-Galloway is not barking up the wrong tree. Residency has different rules than citizenship and is decided in different departments. You can live in NZ all your life with only a residency status; you can even vote with only residency status.

  9. 9

    According to Andrea Vance, twitter, Peter Thiel gained citizenship in 2006 under Labour.
    All the abuse piled on National should now be piled on Labour.
    “yea right”

    2. 9.2

      Vance is a DP player now and should be considered in the same bracket as Trevitt, young etc

      A serious journalist would know residency isnt citizenship so smearing as expected.

        1. 10.1.2.1

          She amended her comment after initially calling me a liar. I have work to do, so am not religiously glued to the comments section like some of you are.

          1. 10.1.2.1.1

            Me – I’ll be working most of this weekend – so it’s a non-work day today for me. but I’ll be offline most of the weekend.

  11. 11

    It appears that Nickoff will be using the Nelson Cathedral to gain some votes this election.

    Front page news last night, interesting comments online

    “Why single out the Cathedral for public support Nick – there are many other churches with EQ issues that don’t have the financial resources that the Diocese does. The Church of Christ in Rutherford Street needed to be demolished at their own cost.”

  12. 12

    Not everyone is happy about Agent Orange…


    “Four leading department officials and country’s border police chief quit posts under Donald Trump’s administration.”

    “An entire senior management team of the US State Department has resigned under the new administration of President Donald Trump, local media has reported.”
    And Enrique is just not into the wall idea.
    Mexico leader cancels Trump meet over border wall spat
    Trump’s scheduled meeting with President Enrique Pena Nieto falls apart after Mexico refuses to pay for border wall.

    1. 12.1

      President Donald Trump has decided he will seek to pay for the wall on the US’s southern border by imposing a 20% tax on imports from Mexico and as part of a larger comprehensive tax reform plan, the White House said Thursday.

      White House press secretary Sean Spicer said the comprehensive tax reform package Trump and Republicans are looking to put together will include taxing imports from other countries, like Mexico.
      http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/26/politics/donald-trump-mexico-import-tax-border-wall/index.html?adkey=bn

      1. 12.1.1

        It wasn’t just Mexico he was talking about putting a 20% tax on their inport into America … also “other countries”.

        We need to ditch America. If they don’t want to be a team player (or want to be an even worse team player than usual) we shouldn’t play their game. Let’s look elsewhere, I’m sure plenty of other countries are.

    2. 12.2

      The AFSA (American Foreign Service Association) press release.

      “Like the military, the career Foreign Service is an up-or-out system—those who fail to move up are forced out—and it relies on regular rotations (we typically move to a new job every 2-3 years) to perform a key mission—that is, developing a deep bench of experienced senior leaders year after year. Thus, both rotations to new positions and retirements after a fixed number of years of service are part of the DNA of the Foreign Service. Have no doubt that the next generation of leaders is eager to step up and serve, ensuring the continuity of this great institution.”

      [,,,]

      AFSA, the voice of the Foreign Service, is the professional association and labor union of the U.S. Foreign Service

      http://www.afsa.org/statement-senior-personnel-changes-department-state

      1. 12.3.1

        Thank you Everyone. Following this whole Agent Orange saga is fascinating, really appreciate your information and insight.

    4. 12.4

      You did see this sentence in the item you linked too, did you Cinny.

      “Turnover is the rule, rather than the exception, among the top officials in the US government when the White House changes hands from one party to another, in this case from Democrat Barack Obama to Republican Donald Trump.”

      Looking at the jobs they held I am rather surprised they call them a “team”. They would seem to be in quite dissimilar roles.
      Can’t say I blame them though. Trump is a nutter in my opinion.

      1. 12.4.1

        I think I did Alwyn, thankies. Have been watching house of cards, is fiction boarding on reality, but helpful in getting my head around their system, so many tiers and trust issues me thinks. Maybe their ‘team’ is their belief system rather than their roles?

        I’ll give Agent Orange this however, he sure is doing what he said he would.

        1. 12.4.1.1

          “he sure is doing what he said he would”.
          I really wish you hadn’t been able to say that. I think I shall go to bed and stay there for the next four years. When I wake up we may have a new POTUS.
          If I wake up of course.

  13. 13

    Glenn Greenwald: Democrats Eager to Blame “Everybody
    But Themselves” for Collapse of Their Party
    Democracy Now!, Jan. 6, 2017

    As Director of National Intelligence James Clapper testifies at a Senate hearing on Russian cyberthreats ahead of a highly classified briefing today with President-elect Donald Trump, we speak with Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Glenn Greenwald, who has faced an onslaught of criticism for questioning the premise of Russian hacking of the U.S. election.

    “Because Democrats are so desperate to put the blame on everybody but themselves for the complete collapse of their party, they’re particularly furious at anybody who vocally challenges this narrative,” Greenwald says. “And since I’ve been one of the people most vocally doing so, the smear campaign has been like none that I have ever encountered. I have been accused of being a member of the alt-right, of being an admirer of Breitbart, of being supportive of Donald Trump, of helping him get elected and, of course, of being a Kremlin operative.”

    …..

    Read more….
    https://www.democracynow.org/2017/1/6/glenn_greenwald_democrats_eager_to_blame

    1. 13.1

      Swing towards ugly Authoritarianism from the Trump Regime (possibly with quasi-Fascist tendencies / or possibly in a somewhat milder Berlusconi mould … we’re just going to have to wait and see)

      … and a concomitant …

      Swing towards a rigidly-enforced McCarthyite Group-Think (bordering at times on mass hysteria – complete with officially-ordained The Ruskies are com’in !!! Conspiracy Theory) from the Washington Consensus / New Cold War Democrat Establishment

      The split on The Standard – such as it is – has been largely between those happy to immerse themselves in the second phenomena … vs … those of us who recoil at both.

      1. 13.2.1

        Don’t worry, I’m not tracking you. It’s just that your naïve comment had some immediate use as an example of folly, and a warning to other posters.

        I hope you don’t mind.

  14. 14

    ‘Inflation’ blamed for $200-800 million cost increase in Auckland’s East West link

    The Green Party has questioned the financial viability of Auckland’s East West link highway, saying the Government’s own business case has costs outweighing benefits.

    Construction of the East West Link started in September 2016, and it will be a four-lane highway connecting state highways 1 and 20 from Onehunga to Penrose.

    But Green Party transport spokesperson Julie Anne Genter says a dramatic jump of $200-800 million in estimated cost at the beginning of 2016 casts doubts over the project’s legitimacy.

    The New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) produced a detailed business case for the East West Link on December 23, 2015, estimating total capital costs for the project at $1.05 billion.

    One month later, January 27, 2016, the Government released a media statement announcing it was fast-tracking the project at a total estimated cost of $1.25 billion to $1.85 billion.

    So, one month of inflation had the cost jump nearly 80%?

    1. 14.1

      Probably forgot to add the fletcher/fulton hogan levy up front so they can screw over subbies and replace them when they go broke.

      eliminates the need to go back for extra funding this way.

  15. 15

    Well done to us on our number one ranking in the latest Transparency International list. However I don’t think it is a proper reflection of New Zealand. I have never thought us to be totally deserving of the rankings and that we are probably at the lower end of the top ten.

    Will the Government come clean and tell us how Mr Thiel got that citizenship or are we going to have to use the O.I.A. to drag it out of the Minister?

    https://willnewzealandberight.com/2017/01/27/transparent-to-the-world-but-not-so-to-kiwis/

    1. 15.1

      I have never thought us to be totally deserving of the rankings and that we are probably at the lower end of the top ten.

      Hearsay is that USians, once they find out how NZ works, are absolutely disgusted by the level of overt corruption in this country.

      As I’ve said before: We’re so used to how things are in this country that we’ve lost the ability to recognise corruption.

      If the nation as a whole can’t recognise it then just how good are the perception ratings?

  16. 16

    i posted yesterday about the russian cyber security guy being arrested for treason and such and thought it was an odd coincidence.

    well lookit it here,

    https://themoscowtimes.com/news/americas-alleged-spy-in-the-heart-of-russian-cybersecurity-56945?utm_source=CGI+Daily+Russia+Brief&utm_campaign=d22e6a1966-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_01_26&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_814a2b3260-d22e6a1966-281732809&mc_cid=d22e6a1966&mc_eid=ba2db135c1

    there is a whole Tom Clancy novel in there.

    interesting times, interesting times.

    1. 16.1

      “there is a whole Tom Clancy novel in there.”.

      Yes. What a shame we have a Donald Trump instead of a Jack Ryan.

    1. 17.1

      The US system was designed to prevent democracy. The rich were fearful that the people would vote in restrictions that would prevent them from being rich and so they made sure that only the rich could run for office.

      In fact, that could be said about all representative systems.

      That said, go back even a few years and participatory democracy simply wouldn’t have been practical but, with modern communications and computing, it’s certainly getting that way now.

  18. 18

    So the wall is going to be paid by putting a 20% duty on Mexican imports to the US.

    So doesn’t that mean the prices will go up by 20%.

    So that means the americans who buy the products will actually be paying for the wall.!!!

      1. 18.1.1

        The man is an absolute nutcase. The international consequences of this are far reaching – the results may not be what the chump envisages.
        They are not just economic – the US is to become another Australia in breaching International Human Rights and the treatment of asylum seekers.

    2. 18.2

      You can see why he was personally bankrupted four times, he is not the sharpest tool in the shed, but, he certainly is a tool!

  19. 19

    So, there’s some sabre rattling in the Balkans – Serbia, the recipients of a major arms donation by Russia, have dispatched a train to a Serbian enclave in Kosovo with the message – if Serbs are killed, we’ll [an] send army to Kosovo – and look who turns up.

    Lewandowski, POTUS' ex campaign manager, first major post-elxn gig: advising Serb nationalists in #Bosnia, #Serbia. https://t.co/FGN3x4FFcO— Jasmin Mujanović (@JasminMuj) January 26, 2017

    https://twitter.com/JasminMuj/status/824629956676313093

  21. 21

    I note that in a Huffington Post puff piece about Linda Tirado, the following remarkable claim is made….

    Her husband served honorably in Fallujah with the USMC…

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/author/linda-tirado

    That is like saying “Her husband served honorably at My Lai with Company C of the First Battalion.”

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    [whatever the writer at the Huffington Post thought about Tirado’s husband doesn’t haven’t anything to do with the post Morrissey. Please don’t derail like this – weka]

  22. 22

    Could someone, preferably weka, tell me how this is off topic?

    https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-27012017/#comment-1292448

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    [I’ve already explained Morrissey. Whatever someone thinks about Linda Tirado’s husband has nothing to do with her words or my post. What’s not clear about that? Also, please don’t bring discussions about moderation back into the post they’ve been moved from. Use the comment that’s been moved if you need to talk about it – weka]

  23. 23

    The United States: wreaking havoc internationally for at least 133 years

    Trump is horrific, but the United States has been a nightmare to people from Africa to Central America, South America and Asia long before he and his grisly gang came to power.

    For 126 years, the US and Belgium have played key roles in shaping Congo’s destiny. In April 1884, seven months before the Berlin Congress, the US became the first country in the world to recognise the claims of King Leopold II of the Belgians to the territories of the Congo Basin.

    https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2011/jan/17/patrice-lumumba-50th-anniversary-assassination

  25. 25

    One of my gardening friends has this rose in full flower. Says it is now the conversation piece of his garden. Well worth growing, certainly not huge but sends out gorgeous sprays of gold.

    1. 26.1

      “I wouldn’t bother saying anything against her publicly…” Julie-Anne Genter.

      Ha, that made me laugh as she just did.

      And it didn’t go unnoticed.

      Moreover, publicly stating “I wouldn’t bother saying anything against her publicly” is a false narrative.

      Where was her head at?

      1. 26.1.1

        Julie Anne Genter ‏@JulieAnneGenter 8h8 hours ago

        Truly sorry @lailaharre for tweets re @TheSpinoffTV i/v y’day – regret any slight to your integrity – hope to put in past #ChangeTheGovt

        …

        Laila Harré Retweeted Julie Anne Genter

        Thanks for this. See you on the frontline!

        Laila Harré added,
        Julie Anne Genter @JulieAnneGenter
        Truly sorry @lailaharre for tweets re @TheSpinoffTV i/v y’day – regret any slight to your integrity – hope to put in past #ChangeTheGovt

          1. 26.1.1.1.1

            Yes, but genuine apology too, which is what I would expect, and Harre gets it, which I would also expect. This is how it’s done well. Make a mistake, own up, be honest in the owning up, make amends, move on, know who your allies are.

            edit, I actually found the tweet exchanges interesting and informative. I’d already read the very long interview with Harre and had some questions, which have now been cleared up.

            1. 26.1.1.1.1.1

              An unprofessional mistake that one wouldn’t expect someone at that level to have fallen too. Utter incompetence.

              Moreover, the timing of the avoidable spat (potentially sabotaging the working well perception) couldn’t have been much worse.

              Dressing the apology up as an example of them now working well is little more than an attempted save, IMO.

              An apology was required, given and accepted, there was nothing extraordinary special about it that would warrant a perception of the two working well. In fact, the spat behind it suggests otherwise.

            2. 26.1.1.1.1.2

              “I’d already read the very long interview with Harre and had some questions, which have now been cleared up.”

              Do tell?

              It was an interesting interview. The following paragraphs struck a chord.

              “My own conclusion is that it’s really not going to be possible to build an alternative party to Labour on the left. I guess coming to terms with the importance of Labour institutionally to our democratic fabric… The one pre-condition, it seems to me, to having a progressive, innovative government is to strengthen the Labour Party. There are other things that may or may not need to happen but that is one thing that absolutely must happen for that to be possible. So I think the priority is to rebuild public confidence in the Labour Party and inject new ideas and energy into the party.”

              “I think the international evidence would very clearly point to the biggest risk being in social democrat parties not strongly connecting to their traditional base, and not strongly articulating their core policies around equality, wages, education, not being frightened of trade unions, all of that,” says Harré. “I just think the international evidence is overwhelmingly telling us that. And if anything I think it’s very clear that you take a much greater risk if you are not clear about where your base is.”

              “I do think that there is a lack of appreciation within Labour – not necessarily at the senior levels, but possibly in some quarters – of their vulnerability. They’ve barely moved above 30% since 2014. That was their worst election result. And they can’t blame anyone else for that. It was a terrible campaign for Labour. I think there is a lack of appreciation about the real vulnerability of their position in the political framework.”

              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11789233

              1. 26.1.1.1.1.2.1

                “Do tell?”

                As far a I can tell all you’re here to do is stick the boot in. Curious, given the timing. Nevertheless I’m not interested.

                1. 26.1.1.1.1.2.1.1

                  “As far a I can tell all you’re here to do is stick the boot in.”

                  I can tell you now you are incorrect.

                  Therefore, do you care to try again?

            3. 26.1.1.1.1.3

              “Yes, but genuine apology too,”

              Really?

              I’m trying to figure out if she was telling the truth in her tweets?

              Or did she get her facts/dates wrong?

              Colossal blunder if the latter.

              Why the kiss -and -make -up exchange if the former?

              Whole thing makes them all look disconnected and disorganised and quite frankly just more than a little nasty.

              IMHO

              (Re- reading the interview with Harre, she really needs to speak with more clarity. It is not always clear what she is saying.)

              1. 26.1.1.1.1.3.1

                “I’m trying to figure out if she was telling the truth in her tweets?”

                Yes, it was interesting that she never conceded to being mistaken.

        2. 26.1.1.2

          Yes, seen that (damage control) it’s in the second link I initially provided.

          Someone must have told her to pull her head in.

    2. 26.2

      What was she thinking?

      Not at lot by the sounds of it.

      Should be made to write out one hundred times….

      I must think before I tweet
      I must think before I tweet
      I must think before I tweet

      2. 26.2.2

        “I must think before I tweet”.
        Do you think we could get it extended to Donald Trump?
        If he took 30 seconds per line and we made him do it about 2 million times it would take all his waking hours for the next 4 years.
        By then we could have arranged that he didn’t have any time to do anything at all during his term and we would have another President.

  27. 27

    Christ Almighty! the inability of the lektrit to see thruough bullshit never ceases to amaze.
    Now we have Steven Choice warning of rising intriss rates and the poss bull consiquincizz.

    Does anyone really think he gives a shit about forclosures yest to come?

    I’ve always been of the view that more fool you for signing up to the bullshit in the first place, but PLEASE! don’t start squeeling like stuffed pigs when you do.
    (Kapiti residents in particular – you know – that place where your elected rep – who never inhaled-signed off on that beautiful philanthropic Mister Thiel

    Don’t you poor people realise you’re not allowed to get ahead?!
    Don’t you realise you should know your place?

    And what about when IRD start looking into your ‘cashies’ under the table – so you can pay the mortgage – and still keep the ute and indulge in a point or two a couple of times a week.

    mmmm….. the ‘middle class’ eh?

    “Steven Joyce is warning about taking on too much debt”.
    no he’s not suckers!
    If he was genuine about that warning – he would have issued it 6 months to a year ago.
    Steven Joyce is relishing the outcome of those who have taken on too much debt

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