Preliminary talks underway

Written By: notices and features - Date published: - 166 comments
Categories: election 2017 - Tags: ,

Preliminary talks between NZF and National have concluded, talks between NZF and Labour are due this afternoon:

Significantly, Peters met with Pike River families first:

Gower has resorted to parodying himself?

Summing up:

166 comments on “Preliminary talks underway”

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            1. 1.1.1.1.2.1

              Yup. When people point to Bennett and Collins as success for women I tend toward the notion that they have succeeded by behaving according to the patriarchal norms

              1. 1.1.1.1.2.1.1

                What are the “patriarchal norms”? Would I be right in saying that you would think that someone like Jacinda Ardern has succeeded by behaving not according to the patriarchal norms? (not sure what these are)

                1. 1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1

                  Any woman who becomes a successful MP is behaving according to patriarchal norms to some extent. It’s just that the RW MPs seems to take it to extremes, and they’re a better fit for the values, whereas JA is able to bring in other values as well.

                  An example of ‘patriarchal norm’ would be that politics is about leverage and power and control rather the co-operation and trustworthy relationship.

            2. 1.1.1.1.2.2

              Weka, you are providing a value statement that shouldn’t apply to any group, regardless of gender, race or color.
              The dynamic of working together can be tainted by preconceived ideas and assumptions.
              The new divisive curse that seems to plague this country is to purposely look for differences rather than similarities.

              1. 1.1.1.1.2.2.1

                “The new divisive curse that seems to plague this country is to purposely look for differences rather than similarities.”

                Interestingly I can do both and still work with others.

                I said,

                “Indigenous women’s culture has much to teach us about how to behave and how to organise and work together.”

                What is it about that that you disagree with?

                1. 1.1.1.1.2.2.1.1

                  regardless of gender, race or colour

                  V

                  Indigenous women’s culture

                  Thinking of Star Trek: Discovery and soon-to-be-ex-first-officer Michael Burnham’s line – “Don’t confuse race with culture.”

                    1. 1.1.1.1.2.2.1.1.2.1

                      Fingers crossed. I’m going glass half full and understanding that a lot of people are going to say that it’s not trek. Indeed, there’s a dash of Hitch-Hiker’s Guide – Stamets’ project resembles the Infinite Improbability Drive. Perhaps he should use tea?

                      Definitely in the half full aspect is Doug Jones’ full-body acting.

                    2. 1.1.1.1.2.2.1.1.2.2

                      That’s a good approach. I think I’ll watch the first two again and see how it goes.

                      Doug Jones and his character is definitely one of the good things.

                    3. 1.1.1.1.2.2.1.1.2.3

                      The Orville show is unexpectedly issues-based, given that it’s a Seth McFarlane project. The guy who makes Family Guy has some interesting plotlines.

            1. 1.1.1.1.3.1

              Yeah but that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about indigenous culture and women’s culture and how the organise differently than say Pākehā culture or patriarchal culture, and that there are things in those differences we need.

              1. 1.1.1.1.3.1.1

                I get what you mean about patriarchy too. As a man, I’m cis, het and middle aged and I even have a beard, but damnit, seeing even here the patronising, defensive “not all men” bullshit below I want to pound my head on my desk.

                There are a lot of ways of being a man and a critique of some of those ways is not a reason to be insecure. I’m not neurotypical – I’m autistic, and I guess as an outsider or an “anthropologist on Mars” I find all this macho bullshit and “nice guy” defensiveness tedious at best. Give it a rest guys, you don’t need to quaff pints of Brut 33 or mutter “not all men.”

                My dad was a thoroughly kiwi male Rugby League star who wasn’t permitted emotions and it drove him to drink, ruined his marriage and probably hurried his death (a lifetime of high blood pressure). Give it a rest.

                1. 1.1.1.1.3.1.1.1

                  We need more feminist writers here. Then the differences between the patriarchy (a system based around domination, that privileges men in various class strata) and men as a class and men as individuals, would be a given that is easily understood and conveyed.

                  Still, it’s better here than it used to be 🙂

                  I’ve got a post in me about macho politics and why leverage is so important in coalition deals instead of people working together.

        2. 1.1.1.2

          “let” the kuia, weka?
          Who, pray tell, will do the “letting”?
          If the kuia aren’t in charge now, and need to be “let”…

              1. 1.1.1.2.2.1.1

                Sure, that’s in a macho political system, of course kuia are going to get thrown out especially if they go against the status quo. Although that’s not the problem in Fox’s case. She would be good in a different situation I think, which is the point. There are values underpinning how our politics and government work, and those create certain sets of behaviours and outcomes. I’m suggesting they could be improved significantly if kuia were able to work in their own cultural ways with a different set of values.

                As for the voters, they too are locked into a system that pays lip service to democracy and barely knows how to cooperate.

                2. 1.1.1.2.2.1.1.2

                  I think “thrown out” is a stretch. Turei resigned after a political gamble backfired and the Maori party didn’t get enough votes to enter office which is hardly the same as Fox being thrown out.

                  You seem to be suggesting that women need help and need everything changed in order to function as MP’s. I believe that is condescending and diminishes women’s capabilities.

                  1. 1.1.1.2.2.1.1.2.1

                    “You seem to be suggesting that women need help and need everything changed in order to function as MP’s. I believe that is condescending and diminishes women’s capabilities.”

                    Not at all. I think women in macho situations often out perform because they have to work that much harder to get anywhere.

                    I’m not suggesting that parliament be changed to suit women (although that’s a reasonable idea). I’m suggesting that basing parliament in women’s and indigenous culture would be beneficial for NZ. The macho stuff has done its dash and we need better solutions.

                    Turei was harassed out of proportion to her actions. Compared to say how Bill English has been treated for claiming money he wasn’t entitled and for lying. Eventually the harassment got beyond what was tenable and to Turei left. Of course that is her being pushed out, otherwise there would have been a solution that allowed her to remain. Macho values again.

                    1. 1.1.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1

                      You’re overcomplicating the analysis of what happened. The values that led to Metiria Turei’s resignation were a distaste for dishonesty and cheating the welfare system shared by most New Zealanders. We can be a remarkably empathetic bunch, but much about Metiria’s story just didn’t add up.

                    2. 1.1.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.2

                      Yeah, nah. If NZ hates dishonesty so much how come 36% of enrolled voters just voted National?

                      The difference here is that it was acceptable to parts of NZ for English to cheat and lie while an MP and PM, but not for Turei to take extra money for her kid while she was poor. That’s about NZ not Turei.

                      If the MSM had told the story fairly, the outcome would have bene different. Turei’s story makes utter sense to me. I get that some people don’t *like her story, but the idea that it doesn’t add up speaks to bigotry and lack of imagination of the people listening.

                      It was also highly convenient to go after Turei instead of talking about welfare and how WINZ forces people into untenable positions. Because if we looked at that we’d have to look in the mirror as well.

                    3. 1.1.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.3

                      TBH I think a large part of the reason that much of NZ turned on Turei, is that many people already disliked her (her public persona that is) even before the welfare thing came up.

                      A.

                    4. 1.1.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.4

                      I don’t think much of NZ did turn on Turei. A significant chunk of the MSM did (as well as the dirty politics crew meddling) and I’m sure that affected public opinion, but I suspect that most of NZ didn’t take much notice beyond what passed by them on the telly.

                    5. 1.1.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.5

                      “a distaste for dishonesty and cheating the welfare system shared by most New Zealanders”.

                      Who then turned around and voted for the lairs and cheats in National.

                      Including giving English a free pass on stealing over 30k.
                      And Key’s making his millions, by directly costing every New Zealander thousands, playing with our currency. Unfortunately legal, even though the effects were the same, as breaking into every house in New Zealand.

                      Hypocrisy much!

                    4. 1.1.1.2.2.2.1.1.1.4

                      Political blog and all that.

                      I’m doing my best here to stir up some animated conversation here. Not that I’m putting that much into it, but watching the media trying to make news from the ants crawling along the floor is about as fun as watching paint dry. We could use the time productively 🙂

                    1. 1.1.1.2.2.2.1.2.1.1

                      [ spoils fun ]
                      Like Yellowstone Park, where a good burn-off is needed for the vitality of the ecosystem. Or is that Jellystone?

                    5. 1.1.1.2.2.2.1.2.1.5

                      Looked into it (Terra Preta etc) and made some with a simple home-made char-maker but it hasn’t resonated with me. Saw a good ‘pit’ char producer at a Pukekoe community forest garden and was interested in its simplicity, but again, haven’t got the bug. I’m for the slow green burn that bacteria and fungi create, rather than the flaming stuff (aside from beards).

      3. 1.1.3

        Winston knows where the future of NZ First is at and it isn’t propping up a National regime. He is just toying with them more for his own amusement than anything else.

        Tory voters rejected him in Northland & Jones his heir apparent in Whangarei.

        National got too smart alec by putting on that sideshow by farmers in the Waikato, tagging that to the buffoon David Bennett. And it gets worse who backed Hone against Davis??

        The chickens are really coming home to roost after the failed dirty election campaign National ran against him. So forget all the silly talk about a coalition or sitting on the cross benches, Winston is not bowing out this way, and Jones didn’t comeback not to be in Government. I know these boys it’s over for English & Joyce they are retiring in 2 weeks.

      4. 1.1.4

        ”You wouldn’t want somebody’s past behaviour and obnoxiousness to be part of the problem.”, doesnt this discount Winston from the negotiations also?.

    2. 1.2

      A 30 min meeting seems awfully brief to me when it concerns the running of our country, maybe it has something to do with propaganda preaching Joyce being there, I wouldn’t want to be around him any longer than necessary either.

      Wonder how long the meeting with Labour will last.

      Thinking of the Pike families today.

  3. 3

    National would agree to heavily nationalistic policies? Big increase to min wage, ban foreign home/land buyers, big cuts to immigration numbers, investigate pike river. Hard to see. I’m liking Winnie more and more especially when he called out the media last week.

    1. 3.1

      Yes hes a much maligned and grossly underestimated senior politician. And hes no friend of neo liberalism and yet has had to deal a few times with the odious characters…

      He is , in effect ,.. an old time social democrat who believes in Keynesianism , .. and I have no problem with that whatsoever. Despite he is conservative by nature and nationalistic as well.

      It certainly didn’t stop him from being an excellent Foreign Affairs minister with Condy Rice and a great Treasurer to boot.

      There’s nothing wrong with a bit of Peters magic no matter if he goes with National or Labour. He will keep them on their toes, – and scare the living shit out of the New Zealand Initiative ,… and that suits me just peachy.

      Speaking of the NZ Initiative, … aka the old ‘ Business Roundtable …

      New Right Fight – Who are the New Right?
      http://www.newrightfight.co.nz/pageA.html

  5. 5

    Winston meeting with the Pike River folk first speaks volumes.

    He is probably telling them National are going to be asked to swallow a dead rat, but…

    There are so many areas where National has let people down.

    The group who went to that first meeting. Joyce? So National and their usual respect?

    They took no women representatives, just the tight liars group. Says it all.

    1. 5.1

      Thrilled that Tracey Martin is part of the ‘talks team’, she’s one of the politicians I respect the most in the house.

      Reflecting on senior female nat mp’s… there’s not much to be proud of really.

        3. 5.1.1.3

          Make no mistake, there would be no coalition with greens or labour if Meteria was still there! We are very blessed she has gone.

          1. 5.1.1.3.1

            🙄 Never mind that Turei was co-leader through the whole time that the Greens and Labour negotiated the MoU and then spent over a year developing their relationship on the basis of that.

              1. 5.1.1.3.1.1.1

                But he’d be in a government with Bennett Joyce and English?! I don’t think you have any more insight into his thoughts than I do.

  6. 6

    We are now running a $4.1 billion surplus, so whoever gets the government gig is going to be able to take the big money-sacks and start chucking handfuls out of the window at stuff for quite a while:

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1710/S00015/strong-economy-delivers-41-billion-surplus.htm

    Alternatively, whoever gets the gig could really pull down the tax rates for people in the lowest tax brackets and really start to make a little easier.

    Great timing for the negotiations either way.

    1. 6.1

      Yeah… funding health to operational levels will suck up all of that and more.

      That “surplus” is laying the groundwork for a “Norwegian Blue” strategy.

      “You stunned it, just as it were waking up!” Bill will cry.

      This how you create the myth of economic growth when you never produced any.

  7. 7

    Yes it will be good to see all of our children enjoying all rides and slides at the fairs we have plenty to share this was how it was when my children were young.

    2. 9.2

      Kelvin is the most important person in the room. He has history and a relationship with Winston. The others are fine but National has no one like Kelvin.

  10. 10

    Jim Bolger in an interview on National Radio this morning had a sly dig at Jacinda saying Winston would not be happy that a woman wanting to be PM should need Sir
    Sir Michael Cullen there to hold her hand.
    Minus 10 points Bolger!

      1. 10.1.1

        Cullen headlines in one online paper… which frankly is disrespectful to Ardern. If a man were taking experienced people with him, people who have been in such negotiations before they wouldnt bump that leader from the headline.

        Disappointed to see no women on Nats group and seemingly only Ardern on Labour’s. When Peters has 2 it puts others to shame indeed.

    2. 10.2

      ianmac -He is an old man from another era – the captain that made the call to get NZ in the mess that it is still trying to recover from. It is always easy to experiment with the poor peoples money. And yes, we remember.

    1. 11.1

      He’s not that bad – it’s just that he’s not that good. Pretty tragic reflection on Gnat incumbents that Bolger seems like a statesman by comparison.

      1. 11.1.1

        He seems to have snuggled back under the Blue Rosette since making his “i regret” my part in neo liberalism statement

      1. 11.2.1

        His brother Barliman – not a terribly bad fellow, but naĂŻve when it came to politics – happily served Bill Ferny but gave Strider the stink-eye.

          1. 11.2.1.1.1

            May’ve been partly a professional vice – folk who go travelling all over the wilds and sleeping rough and eating what they can catch, they’re like freedom campers: they don’t do much for the local hospitality sector.

            1. 11.2.1.1.1.1

              Though lugging your own ale when you’re traveling on foot is a big ask, Any leads on the whereabouts of the Entwives, Stuart? (It never hurts to ask; one day…)

              1. 11.2.1.1.1.1.1

                Alas no, though by all accounts your forest gardens would be much to their liking. I have been messing with a 4 stroke moa, which is being playful when I would rather it worked, and my herbaceous borders are already plotting to declare that the tyranny of man is at an end.

                1. 11.2.1.1.1.1.1.1

                  Good news…about the revolting ‘erbs, not the other. Tell them, there are kindred spirits, south of the border. where there’s no lawnorder at all!

                  2. 11.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.2

                    I have great sympathy for the plants, but were I to allow them to cavort untrammeled like Mz Bennett playing La Wally, my landlord and I would end up on less than amicable terms. And so, like some oriental despot, the great who will not bow I must needs… …shorten.

    1. 12.1

      Jim Bolger on Q &A was being quite serious about the option.

      However, I thought Guy Salmon on RNZ was closer to future prospects, when he mooted TOP being able to be a pivot party with very strong environmental credentials. That would involve something of a makeover for TOP, but Gareth Morgan will be looking for his wedge point in future elections.

      The one thing people could not say about Gareth is that he is National’s appendage. TOP is clearly his thing and he could easily go both ways.

      1. 12.1.1

        No mention of Englishs zero budgets in your reply Wayne. I am not even sure why you replied to my post. Dont focus on whether Bolger was serious or not Wayne, focus on the Green Charter, Rules and pre election promises

      2. 12.1.2

        I didn’t vote for TOP but I just have a feeling their support base will continue to grow. I cant see them going the way of Internet/Mana etc, I think they are here for the long term.

    1. 14.1

      Wayne will be by his phone waiting for texts from those he doesnt have contact with… alwyn has a week break ( moderation)… BM flouned out a few days ago when he didnt get the Greens to breakvtheir rules and election promise…

      1. 14.1.1

        That is great news, I thought it smelled a little less Tory round here.

        I am all for debate and I get peeved when they Tory all over a discussion.

        1. 14.1.2.1

          All this plays into the relevance of the current flurry of articles and discussion about the prospects of a National/Green coalition. It is highly unlikely to take place, certainly not in this electoral cycle

          Oh God, that’s fucking hilarious since he was trying soooo earnestly to push a Green-Nat coalition and they let him down.

          “We have always been at war with Eastasia, Eurasia has always been our ally…”

          1. 14.1.2.1.1

            I know! It is like he has no memory that he was all over here confuddled and bemused at how such an excellent thing shoukd happen

    2. 14.2

      Robert Guyton 14
      5 October 2017 at 3:45 pm
      Where are our trolls today?
      Awfully quiet, aren’t they?

      When the correct medicine is applied , the disease flees and health is restored.

      And that’s all you’re seeing.

  15. 15

    Wayne, Wayne where art thou Wayne. NZ’s most highly paid right wing troll. I suppose he just likes the intellectual rigour on the left wing sites which he can’t get from Whale Oil and the Penguin.

    1. 15.1

      My pay from the govt is virtually zero.

      I post here, and elsewhere, as a personal interest. As I have said in the past, I am sure most of my former colleagues wonder why I do.

      I don’t post on Whaleoil, except when I was backing the govt over the UN resolution on Israel and Palestine.

      I post on Kiwiblog (where for many I am a dangerous centrist), on The Standard (where I am seen as a “paid” supporter of the “failed neo-liberal experiment”) and occasionally on Bowalley Rd.

      Why do I do it it at all? Because I am interested in politics. And I like to take the contrary view, hence my posts on The Standard, even though it results in heaps of personal abuse. As long as it is not too denigratory I can live with it.

      2. 15.1.2

        That would be a completely accurate statement as far as I am aware.

        I suspect that people should tone down the abuse a bit about Wayne and concentrate more on what he actually says rather than what people think he represents. I realise that I’m not exactly immune from doing that myself. But I can always redirect that bile on those who can’t take a gentle hint.

        1. 15.1.2.1

          It is hard when he says he comes here to debate but wilfully ignores points raised and merely repeats his original thoughts over and over. Example : why the Greens wont join Nats… Lack of trust, Charter, membership, rules and pre election promises. Wayne simply ignores those.

      3. 15.1.3

        How about this: instead of taking the childish “contrary” view, how about fucking listening to the stories of people who have suffered under the neoliberalism and cronyism that has benefited you so well while you’ve complacently wallowed in your seas of gin and tonic?

        It’s not a fucking game for us. We don’t have your privilege; we just have consequences.

          1. 15.1.3.1.1

            I’m with lprent on this one. Wayne contributes to debate – he doesn’t do personal putdowns and he (sometimes) answers questions seriously. It doesn’t hurt to have a contrary viewpoint represented and I can think of far worse people to represent it than Wayne. I certainly wouldn’t call him a troll.

            (And no, that doesn’t mean I agree with him – just that there’s a difference between robust debate and name-calling.)

            1. 15.1.3.1.1.1

              Rhino calls out Mapp’s behaviour and privilege. That’s not a personal attack, it’s criticism.

              By contrast, read Mapp’s argument about tribalism. His version of why the Greens won’t offer confidence and supply to the National Party is an ad-hominem argument from go to whoa.

              Similarly, people here who disagree with him do so because we are “Standarnistas”: the merits or otherwise of our arguments are seldom if ever addressed.

              So yeah, I agree, there’s a difference between robust debate and name calling, and Mapp’s output falls mostly into the second category.

              1. 15.1.3.1.1.1.1

                I would have thought being called a Standardnista was quite mild, in fact even a compliment (though to be fair I don’t use it as a compliment).

                1. 15.1.3.1.1.1.1.1

                  Really? Under what circumstances would you have thought it?

                  I note your failure to address the substance of my remarks. I’ll take that as abject surrender.

                2. 15.1.3.1.1.1.1.2

                  For my own part I find that Wayne often pretends to the role of the ‘plausible Gnat’, a person that adheres to the constitutional conventions of government and apart from tolerably anti-social and dysfunctional economic opinions might be entertained as a dissenting voice. As far as his own conduct goes it might almost work – he did eventually concede that Operation Burnham was not up to standard for instance.

                  Where the façade falls down however is that he never condemns even the most egregious dishonesty or departures from constitutional norms like Carter’s autocratic extinguishing of parliamentary questions.

                  Really he’s rather like Peter Dunne – he talks the pompous talk of mature reflection, but cannot with confidence be entrusted with a public interest issue as Dunne proved with recreational drugs.

              2. 15.1.3.1.1.1.2

                It’s the smug, almost solipsistic privilege without one shred of empathy that is offensive.

                Many times every day we hear stories of people struggling because some are privileged and others aren’t and to Blimp it’s a trite first-year law student’s moot.

                That condescending dismissal of lived experience and display of privilege itself is constantly and aggressively belittling.

            2. 15.1.3.1.1.2

              It is hard when he says he comes here to debate but wilfully ignores points raised and merely repeats his original thoughts over and over. Example : why the Greens wont join Nats
 Lack of trust, Charter, membership, rules and pre election promises. Wayne simply ignores those.

  16. 16

    I hope the free sports coverage initiative has some feet.

    The more sport is a inclusive commonality and shared life quality among the NZ population, the better. That has historically underpinned what NZ has been about in it’s identity.

    There is no need to take it away from sky however, all their sport channel offerings simply being tailor made to give the customer a rebate from the govt at the end of the year, like 70%. The other 30% goes to local govts according to their sky subscription levels, for the provision of free community sports clubs. That would keep the relation between quality of coverage and sky revenues, increasing them in all likelihood to levels they could not otherwise reach, along with re-establishing the sense of traditional NZ community spirit to some degree, while involving local and state level govt. co-ordination.

        1. 17.1.1.1

          That and more likely to prevent her from opening her gob in front of NZ First negotiators. Bill understands that 98% of anything spoken by ‘Pullya’ will be a catalyst for blowing it.

          1. 17.1.1.1.1

            Winston will not have wanted her there. It seems likely therefore that she will not have a senior role in the next Govt (good).

            A.

            1. 17.1.1.1.1.1

              He wouldnt have wanted Joyce but he is there. No women in Nat group. One in Labours and 2 in Peters… Asians? Pasifika?

              Deciding a future for all NZers….

    1. 18.1

      Or she has filled her cup, now spring is sprung,
      and in the fires her winter garments of repentance flung.

    3. 19.3

      Or, saying he loses EITHER WAY could imply not signing up with anyone.

      Let Labour & Greens cosy up together, form a confidence & supply with what polls the highest (a good reason for wanting to see the final count before deciding), then sit on the cross benches and do deal after deal, getting NZ First bucket list done one thing at a time.

  20. 20

    Would like to see Winston as PM, or James Shaw.

    [deleted]

    [lprent: And in my personal opinion, you are likely to be a simple minded syphilitic fuckwit who fingers your bellybutton in the vague idea that is how you have sex. After all you must have lost intelligence from spreading the brain rot after wiping your syphilitic hands around your lower brain and rotting that off as well. The evidence is clear – you can’t even remember your handle. I had to change it for you again. Do you need help with your diapers? I’d guess that rotten dick of yours must leak like your brain does. You won’t get much help from me.

    Banned for 2 weeks for wasting my time. One for changing your handle, and the second for being an idiotic enough to think that we’d tolerate that level of fact free defamatory assertion that you can’t substantiate. ]

    1. 20.1

      […] fingers your bellybutton in the vague idea that is how you have sex […] wiping your syphilitic hands around your lower brain […] that rotten dick of yours must leak like your brain does.

      Sir, I stand in awe at the work of a true artiste. Not in a “bless my soul” sarcastic way of a tory suddenly clutching their pearls [giggle]. I never would have come up with that belly button line even on my best day.

    2. 20.2

      That’s a classic bollocking I’ve seen ages anywhere Lprent. Can I have permission to use this spray when I taking ceremonial drill when some screwball cocks up or one of these young dumb male muppets of Y gen can’t get his shit into one piled?

  22. 22

    Winston is a saviour for NZ Politics as he has the smarts and memory of when all these newbees were not even in Parliament.

    Winston is equal to being our insurance over bad National governence.

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