What’s with the academic panic epidemic about China? Two in our broadcast media in the same week, referencing each other with vague warnings about the Chinese bogey. It’s not quite Lionel Terry in Haining Street again; more likely in my view a case of singing to someones else’s geopolitical tune. No prizes for guessing whose.
Professor Anne-Marie Brady was interviewed on TVOne’s Q+A on Sunday about a paper she had presented in Washington to the Woodrow Wilson Institute at an event organised by the Taiwanese Endowment for Democracy. The normal activities of a diplomatic embassy were given a sinister cast, coupled with a tendentious listing of contacts with Chinese individuals. What danger we might be in was unspecified apart from the information that the Chinese were installing their own geostations in Antarctica, for obvious reason one would think. But we should listen to the Australians, Professor Brady said.
Then today on Radio New Zealand’s Morning Report we got to listen to an Australian. Professor Hamilton’s book had been withdrawn by his publishers because they feared the Chinese might sue, according to him. We were not able to judge if it just might not have been a very good book. It’s title was “Silent Invasion: How China is turning Australia into a puppet state.” He rather ruined his argument for this by going on to say that Australia’s government had issued some very strong statements about China’s activities. Also Malcolm Turnbull’s statement that Australia would follow America into war with North Korea did not sound like the words of a Chinese puppet. More like another madman.
There is no doubt since Obama’s pivot to Asia that geopolitical rivalry has ramped up between the United States and China. Australia is firmly in the US camp, and the danger for us is that we become drawn once again into other people’s wars of empire. China has the world’s longest-lasting civilisation, and a Confucianist philosophy and polity quite unlike ours but one that has proved its durability. That is in spite of suffering invasion from west and east, an internal uprising and a civil war in the last 150 years. More recently millions of people have been brought out of poverty. Chinese are hard-working, resilient and friendly people and we need to understand them better, not fear them so much.
One useful thing Anne-Marie Brady did highlight was the question of political donations. She advocates public funding and she’s right about that. But it wouldn’t just catch the Chinese.
Chinese people are generally lovely but the Chinese Communist Party is a murderous criminal gang
Chinese people are like every other human, there’s just a lot more of them.
Yep the good, bad and ugly just like everyone else.
Agree
ropata – perhaps they are, but the context is that they’ve lifted ~400M people from absolute poverty to the comfortable working classes or lower middle classes in the last 3 decades, and lifted life expectancy for the entire population by roughly 5 years.
They’ve also not caused the deaths of millions of civilians in foreign wars in that same time frame.
It was a pretty low bar to start with.
How much more right wing can your comments get Muttonbird?
And so is the US administration.
Which is a very good reason to be wary of their dealings with us and in the wider region.
@ ropata (1) … true and to think we had a former/existing(?) member of the Chinese Communist Party (a spy?), who was evasive with his NZ citizenship application details, sitting as an MP (fundraiser for Natz) in the previous government!
There is a saying that ISTR is of Chinese origin: “When elephants fight, the grass is trampled”.
China’s in an expansionist phase, and the US is in decline. If we’re lucky this will be a fairly peaceful transition.
But as empires go, the US is a largely absentee occupier. I’m not sure China will follow suit.
I’m not entirely sure. There’s definitely a certain attitude inside China that nothing outside of China matters. (it’s hilarious watching US writers phrase this as a way China is different from the US, though) If that attitude is ascendant in the government as their ascent to empire fully kicks in, we might get another relatively benevolent phase.
That made me chuckle. In so many ways the USA and a significant number of their citizens behave as though little exists beyong their borders. It is a big place.
“But as empires go, the US is a largely absentee occupier” Really McFlock, do you believe that dribble?
Read up on Rome or the Belgian Congo sometime, dickwad.
” dickwad”
Running true to form McFlock – can’t expect any less I suppose.
How about you have a wee look at the USA and it’s history seeing as you want to go there. Nuclear bombs on the Japaneese, the Philippine – American war, and the wars against the native Americans – just to name a couple.
How many USA military bases are their in the world? Silly question, as they don’t even know the exact number.
How many wars have the USA started and continue in your lifetime McFlock – how many countries are they occupying just right at this minute?
How many Drone strikes were ordered just last week? Which target civilians by the way – a new policy under this president. A largely absent occupier, except for the air above you, and the military bases they have in your country.
I did not say the US empire was good.
I said it was less hands-on.
We do not have a polyglot garrison of US soldiers in every main centre up and down NZ. We do not have US engineers building roads an infrastructure to facilitate the movement of those garrisons. We are not expected to pay tribute every year, for fear of being obliterated. We do not have people disappearing into labour camps by the tens or hundreds of thousands. And as for how nasty the yanks are, compare Japan 70 years after they lost a war with the USA with Carthage 70 years after Rome was done with them.
I really hope you never see the true meaning of “empire”. The yanks are fucking amateurs.
Do you understand how client states work in empire right? We play the game, we go fight wars with them, we support them, and yes we have bases in NZ just incase you missed the one. Friends have been arrested on one of these, and deported to a USA jail.
They don’t need a heavy hand. They have the tacit support of the population, via the soft power that the USA empire welds.
As for the Roman vrs USA empire, completely different. For starters Rome was not a world power, and relied on way less technology to control the populous. As for Japan and Carthage – maybe you might want to talk to the young women and girls who a habitually raped by occupying USA service people, and ask them how they think it’s different.
If you think the USA empire are amateurs – you have not being paying attention.
Carthage ceased to exist.
The Nazis had client states, but didn’t use “soft power”. The Japanese had client states. The British definitely did. All of them ran their client states with much closer control than the yanks do.
As for amateurs in emire, look at the difference in quality between the roads the Chinese make in Africe and the roads the yanks made in Afghanistan (which fell apart almost immediately). Compare that with the railways the British built, some of which are still running with the original switching gear. Hell, some Roman roads are still used by traffic.
And then there’s the Belgians, who shocked even the 19th century West. Rubber and ivory came down the river, mostly just chains and ammunition went up the river.
ironically, historian Niall Ferguson, who is a supporter of imperialism, thinks that the US is a bad – meaning incompetent – empire because it’s in denial about being one.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2004/jun/05/highereducation.history
So yeah, fucking amateurs (with extreme sarcasm, as you intended).
Jezz Mike. this China stuff has been going on for the last 5 to 10yrs possible longer and it’s only starting to gain traction since the GFC as it showed the US is in decline as a economic powerhouse and US Forces are over extended its self. Which has allowed China to flex’s in economic and it’s new found military power in much the same way as empires of the pass did.
+1
Hi ExKiwi
It’s Chinese soft power that is being feared and I’m not sure that it is the same way as empires of the past have flexed their power, such as the Opium Wars which are still high in Chinese memory and the invasion by the Japanese Empire in the 1930s which resulted in the rape of Nanjing. I can’t think of a recent example when the Chinese have bombed any other country or destroyed anyone else’s cities.
Well, you could say Tibet and the civil war post WW2 but that was before its new found wealth and new found military might. The way China has conducted itself over the South China Sea, Yellow Sea and in the East China Sea is pretty much like the empires of old through the use of Gun Boat diplomacy. Claiming a bit rock above sea of way outside your 12mile limit and your 200mile EEZ is pushing International law a tad little too far would you think ? But then again the West hasn’t been all that good in that department either and as the old saying goes “when Rome do what the Romans do”.
“Claiming a bit rock above sea of way outside your 12mile limit and your 200mile EEZ”
So what about the Falklands then? Or the Chatham Islands? Or Guam? Or Norfolk Island, etc.
Disputes with Japan and South Korea are just that —disputes. If you say China is guilty of gunboat diplomacy what about the other disputants? Are they not then guilty of gunboat diplomacy against China???
Boundary disputes are common all round the world —-bit different from sending troops half way round the world to bomb the shit out of developing countries (something that New Zealand has supported), or sending gunboats to China and forcing the Chinese to legalize opium and flooding the country with the stuff (as the British did).
You seem to lack any understanidng of moral equivalency.
As for the South China Sea, China’s claim is long held, not just a recent assertion of strength —the Taiwanese claim more or less the same area, as rulers of the so-called ‘Republic of China’.
The facts show that China, of all great powers, and of all the major civilizations as the least imperialistic in history.
In fact one can travel round the world on a Chinese passport and people are unlikely to hate you. Whereas travelling on a US passport in many parts of the world could get you killed.
The hatred against America is pretty much a constant throughout most of the world – particularly the non-white world. Ill feeling against China pales in comparison
No it’s not – it’s pure fiction invented to help China’s new imperialist attitude.
That may have been true at some point. It’s not true any more as their push for more control over more land/resources and other countries shows.
Same can be said of a NZ passport which probably explains why the Israeli’s tried to steal some.
Mike, I think you mean Lionel Terry NOT John Terry. Good to see Sinophobia being rejected; we have far too much of it in this country.
On the White New Zealand policy, check out: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2015/02/07/pieces-on-the-white-new-zealand-policy/
Thanks Philip I did mean Lionel Terry. Have football on my mind at the moment!
Public broadcasting please so we can get intelligent analysis reflecting the history and balance around this issue.
Uncle Sam wants to be the only bully in the school and is using the tools (media) to get everyone on their side of the playground.
No need to fear Chinese people, every reason to feel nervous about Chinese government, in my view. Let’s make sure we separate the two.
There’s every reason to fear any powerful governing entity be it Chinese, American, Russian or the EU. Each are monolithic and murderous in their own way.
Personally I fear the American’s the most given their weapons of mass destruction and the mass ignorance leading to buildup and likelihood of confrontation in Eastern Europe. The blustering idiots at NATO seem to think that they can win a war with Russia in Europe and are preparing for just that.
Kiwi’s are becoming more sinophobic due to the migration of moneyed middle class Chinese buying up property and getting involved in the political process (e.g. Blue Dragons). The transNational party has a lot to answer for in this regard.
Part of the problem as I see it is that due to latent racism (Kiwis) the Chinese community tends to not integrate with the society they’ve migrated to. This is the case across the West but perhaps to a lesser degree in NZ.
With you all the way there LR. I would just like to add that the American/Israeli meddling in the ME won’t end well either. The growing Russophobia and the fomenting of the Sunni/Shia divide by Israel/USA are, imo, more problematic than Nth Korea.
As to the growth of China’s influence, a declining empire is more dangerous than an ascending one according to History, so it easy to believe the saying “the business of China is business, the business of the USA is war”.
Saudi-Israeli-US partnership in the Middle East is an extremely dangerous and destabilising one.
Agreed.
SA in particular is on a dangerous path with MBS running amok with his purge, senseless bombing of Yemen, blockade on Qatar etc. Lebanese PM detained in Riyadh, Abbas is next. SA is pushing for a proxy war against Iran by trying to push Israel into a war with Hezbollah. The ultimate prize being a hot confrontation with Iran, allied with the Israelis. They know that the US will be pulled in and are likely banking on it. Such a conflagration will kill millions and cause a global recession due to impact on energy markets.
If there’s ever been a modern axis of evil it’s Saudi Arabia / Israel / USA.
Indeed.
ME proxy wars fomented by the US have resulted in a regional tinderbox set to ignite a wider war which will draw in regional and world powers. Look at Syria! It’s very fortunate that the US and Russians haven’t come to blows already.
Re: DPRK – that whole thing is just a smokescreen imo. All to do with China and selling weapon systems and not much to do with the DPRK unless the US has eyes on any resources they might have. Trump is weapons salesman in chief gallivanting around Asia ratcheting up tensions then doing weapons deals.
The US economy is total reliant on war – they don’t produce anything meaningful to export anymore. It’s US$$, and weapon systems + misery and intervention the US export now.
IMO the US will fall when their dollar hegemony is lost. Russia, China and BRICS know this and so are trying to manage the decline/transition to mitigate the risks.
The EU is murderous? Tell me more.
Fair question.
If anything I meant the states that comprise of the EU rather than the institution itself. The UK, France, Italy and so on have plenty of blood on their hands. France taking the lead on bombing the shit out of Libya for example. The UK in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere in the Middle East.
That’s fair enough. I would agree that several of the member states are themselves murderous, even if the EU itself is probably one of the best forces for peace in the world right now. I’m undecided on whether that situation would improve or deteriorate if the EU took control of defense on behalf of its member states to be honest- it might be that the votes of smaller countries would restrain that joint defense force, or it might not.
Very little about China makes any sense to me. China’s emergence as an economic power is entirely due to state intervention in the markets yet we saw the National Govt fawning over China while at the same time refusing to follow its path to success.
One of China’s achievements has been to expose the appalling hypocrisy of western politicians. So-called ‘free market’ National politicians have been flocking to well paid consultancies with a country which is anything but free market.
Well yes but also a pretty poor minimum wage also helps:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_China
also Chinas reliance on cheap coal probably doesn’t hurt:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-25/coal-king-s-shift-to-more-gas-wins-believers-as-china-use-surges
I’m also guessing this doesn’t hurt either:
http://www.waronwant.org/sweatshops-china
So maybe a good thing National didn’t follow China
But National did follow China – Fire at Will Act, the legislation they had in process that would have killed equal pay, the Warner Bros Act that stripped movie production workers of pretty much all their rights,…etcetera.
It just so happens to be the same policies as the US.
What it comes down to is, if we actually want a functioning society, is that we should follow neither.
This is a bit simplistic a view imo; the agreement between the Chinese Govt and large US corporations to offshore jobs and industry to China was the turning point.
State intervention to facilitate and support this then followed.
I didn’t see it that way CV. I saw their emergence as a genuine power come only after they’d quietly squeezed the corporates out. The yanks thought they could milk China, like they’d done with the likes of Mexico, and they got played.
I’ve also wondered idly how much of coincidence the Internet’s and China’s rise has been. They both rose at the same time. The internet let China steal all the IP it could ever want and they’d certainly have struggled to achieve that without the ‘net.
They both rose at the same time
Nonsense. While Mao was busy murdering the thousand flowers, life expectancy doubled.
Chinese money and settlement has radically changed life for Aucklanders Mike Smith must be on planet Key if he thinks they aren’t justifiably uneasy and angry about it.
Can anyone imagine the residents of a Chinese city tolerating the arrival of tens of thousands of Europeans who proceeded to change familiar street scapes and shopping centres to suit their own commercial activities to the point where local residents have no connection whatsoever with the buisiness conducted there .
That is exactly what a has hppend in Auckland the fact is the Chinese population has reached a critical mass and has established a ” Chinese only” economy – which among other things includes large portions of Aucklands housing stock which has been turned into a kind of exclusive casino . The result no houses for young New Zealanders
Auckland People are well and truly over Imigration and the devastating social effects it’s had on their city . If the Chinese feel uncomfortable about that they only have their own exclusivist behaviour to blame.
You put it perfectly, I live in Auckland & have spent many years in China & HK.
I can never imagine China allowing what has happened in Auckland, to happen in China.
Time to Close the gate!
I’m seeing a lot of baby carriages and pregnant Chinese women in Auckland.
And a hell of a lot of very old Chinese in State houseing, who have never paid a cent of Tax.
How does that work?
Time to rebalance this Country.
I’m seeing a lot of baby carriages and pregnant Chinese women in Auckland.
OMG! That’s terrible. Women of Chinese origin having babies? We can’t have that. (sarc)
Your racist petticoat is showing Bob.
LOL well said Anne.
And some of those Chinese in State homes are 6 generation kiwis.
“And a hell of a lot of very old Chinese in State houseing, who have never paid a cent of Tax.”
Bob…is there actual proof of this…or is it anecdote or personal observation?
I’m not saying it isn’t true..in fact…the van dweller evicted from a public park and having her home towed away that I shared here… https://thestandard.org.nz/the-missing-noun/#comment-1413595
said pretty much the same thing.
It had been their observation that many state houses were going to people ‘straight off the boat’ and when I said how the New Gummint was going to build all these new houses they said that what happens now is that the new houses go straight to (obvious) immigrants.
Now..this person is Maori. This person is homeless and marginalized. I doubt they own a petticoat…but if they did…would it be racist?
We need to get real people…
Remember that Han Chinese are regarded as incipient racists in China.
“straight off the boat” solid evidence right there. Off with their heads.
It is absentee investor/buyers from any country that bother me.
Yep why don’t you piss off Bob.
What do you hate the most about other people, Bob? Is it the fact that they’re more intelligent than you are?
You do realise that people of Chinese descent have been here since the 19th century right?
For heavens sake Unicus — investing in foreign real estate has nothing to do with race or culture. Its just that at this particular juncture there was a lot of money coming from China looking for an investment and if homes can be sold in NZ for a profit then foreigners with money will use those homes to try and make a profit. New Zealanders would hardly be any different. Be that as it may, recently the chinese government is actually trying to limit capital outflows, and new laws limiting foreign purchases of land will probably make hardly any difference (that’s not an argument against those laws though —they should be in place as a protective measure)
Chinese who buy the houses in anticipation of a big profit are no more morally culpable of pushing up prices than those local born Kiwis who sell them same properties for a big profit. Not many New Zealanders of any ethnic persuasion would sell to a local if a Chinese came along and offered one a half times the price. It was the stupidity of the New Zealand government of the time that allowed such a situation to develop
In any case New Zealand has hardly been the only country to suffer (or benefit) from Chinese investment —Singapore, Hong Kong, and Japan also —-surprisingly Japan is another country that allows foreigners the same rights as locals to buy land and houses.
“Can anyone imagine the residents of a Chinese city tolerating the arrival of tens of thousands of Europeans who proceeded to change familiar street scapes and shopping centres to suit their own commercial activities to the point where local residents have no connection whatsoever with the buisiness conducted there.”
Yes. Hong Kong, Shanghai, Singapore – any large Asian city. You have obviously not travelled much. Some of the most popular night spots in those cities owned by Westerners –full of irish pubs, antipodean pubs, with Westerners earning five or six times that of locals. White privilge abounds in East Asia
Furthermore – historically speaking English and other Europeans had the run of China up to 1949, with racially zoned areas where only white people could live. In fact under extraterritoriality, white people could kill Chinese with impunity. Shanghai public spaces had signs put “No Chinese or dogs”
Read up on a bit of history, Unicus, you ignorant racist cracker
Reds under the bed, Yellow Peril. Time for folks to start serious analysis of what the MSM is doing to/for us. The media is the message, and it’s a shallow one.
Let’s be honest here. All expansionist powers interfere in strategically important countries. NZ falls in that camp. If China can influence politics here in a favourable way then they gain international leverage. All great powers do this.
It just so happens that National party politicians are happy to take whatever ‘baubles of office’ or post-politics directorships they can get from Chinese interests.
To think these two issues are separate is the height of wilful naive blindness.
We need to get real and understand the Chinese government is likely doing all it can to buy and coerce influence here and in Australia
Most European kiwis are here as part of Great Britains expansionism.
Yes but how does that change what nukefacts said?
So, NZ is caught in a struggle between 2 super powers (one in decline, the other gaining traction).
It’s hard to know what covert operations, actions, propaganda wars and intrigues are going on, away from public view.
Certainly the media will be a key conduit for the propaganda element, from both super powers.
New Zealanders, including those of Chinese descent, many having ancestors who have been here over a century, need to consider what is in our best interests.
And whichever big power is using their economic power in their own interests, and at the expense of ours, needs to be challenged.
So, NZ is caught in a struggle between 2 super powers (one in decline, the other gaining traction).
Got it in one.
I caught some of the interview with the female professor on Q&A (must listen to full interview) and my reaction… a right-wing conspiracy fantasist? At one point she seemed to be pointing the finger at Labour MP, Raymond Huo . Raymond has lived in NZ for a long time and he loves this country as much as anyone else. I imagine he’s livid at the inferences this woman is making about his loyalty to his adopted country.
How can you love a country you do not care to understand? Any kiwi who thinks Chinese influence in NZ is benign is a fool. I am still waiting to see a a tourist business in Northland bought by Chinese they hasn’t been run into the ground through ignorance of where the owners are in this world a total lack of knowledge and skills required for said business, and their obligation to the community around them. We have sold out for fuck all to a bunch of amateurs who treat us like dirt. All working class migrants are on the same page as working class kiwis by and large BUT what I see in Northland is a lack of knowledge and an uncaring arrogance that will never fit in in this community from small business owners. As a farmers market stall owner I am tired of the sneering denigration from Chinese stall owners I receive for my organic produce. It is better than theirs and I am competitive with my pricing. Asians from other countries willingly buy from me the Chinese refuse to and are openly rude. Kiwis are very stupid people at times. We do not have to tolerate this overt racism. We do not need these people.
Are you a working class migrant shona?
Your account sounds utterly unbelievable —but even if it was I’m not sure why you are worried —if the Chinese businesses are not supported by the local Northlanders (who are overwhelmingly non-Chinese) then they would quickly go out of business. It sounds more like sour grapes on your part.
And money. We are caught between the monied.
Observe the accusations and petty suspicion that focused around the National MP Jiang Yang.
It all fed into the “yellow peril on our shores” narrative perfectly, and many anti-National types were quite happy to do so based on nothing more than the most circumstantial of evidence.
BTW NZ’ers would be naive to not realise that the Chinese are leveraging everything they have to get a stronger diplomatic and economic position in the Southern Hemisphere.
Including a 5th base in mineral rich Antarctica.
tish tosh and Folderol CV. Jian Yang should not be in parliament until his citizenship lies have been thoroughly investigated. The guy is full of shit.
🙄
And if any ex-US migrant MP had failed to declare working at a school with close ties to CIA or NSA, you’d be popping a hemorrhoid.
The Antarctic thing is a good point – people seem aware of the growing tensions over the Arctic Ocean being de-iced, with territorial waters and EEZ becoming available for exploitation and sea lanes. But the Antarctic is also getting a bit of that going on. Sooner or later there’ll be conflict over it.
Although if a decent cache of rare earths is found in Antarctica, China will be all over conservation efforts prohibiting mining, so there’s that possibility 🙂
Agree. And any ordinary migrant who lies, according to NZIS os asked to leave. Hands are tied and all that… except it seems…
That’s not a petty suspicion. He lied on his application to become a citizen (we know he did this because he told us) which is automatic grounds for dismissing the application.
The fact that he lied at the behest of the Chinese government makes it exponentially worse.
There is nothing that Yang could do or say that would allow rational people to trust him ever again and that extends to the Chinese government.
Scratch the skin of most NZers and a racist will show.
Yeah Stephen? define a New Zealander. It is not racist to describe what we are experiencing in our New Zealand communities right now. Stick your pontification where the sun don’t shine mate!
Exactly – This is no time for phoney moralising about being unkind to racists -Chinese views on , and nicknames for our ethnic and Polynesian populations are un-printable . They typicaly refer to Europeans among themselves only in perjorative racist terms .
What you say of their buisiness practices is largely true – trash capitalists with an eye for an easy buck .
“Chinese views on , and nicknames for our ethnic and Polynesian populations are un-printable”
What utter tripe —-what exactly are those ‘nicknames’ Unicus?
You probably aren’t aware of how racist people from many parts of Asia and the Middle East are.
Not sure, they do it too, is a particularly valid argument.
It is in this case, because it converts your assertion to “Scratch the skin of most humans and a racist will show,” which is a pointless truism.
Except that racism is anchored in very specific historical contexts relating to colonialism and social darwinism.
You want to contend that “humans are racist” then that’s on a par with saying “humans are misogynistic”.
Who-ever or whatever else can be all manner of ugly fuckedness, but only “whites” can be racist.
To satisfy the definition dont you have to assert, or have system that assert, your race is superior to others and thereby disadvantage them? In my mind that could be so to other than white behaviour. BUT having your feelings hurt by something a brown person says to a white person is not automatically racism which is where I think people (white mostly) get confuddled?
Racism was the construct that underpinned or justified colonialism. Racism held that humanity was made up of distinct “races” with the ‘white race’ (or Anglo-Saxon) being at the apex.
No doubt other cultures and peoples have seen themselves as superior. But as a race (determined by physical characteristics) apart and above the rest of humanity? I doubt it.
Racism is the assertion of, or claim to superiority, by dint of whiteness.
“Racism is the assertion of, or claim to superiority, by dint of whiteness.”
Bollocks, plenty of racism displayed over history throughout the world that hasn’t had any ‘whiteness’ attached to it.
Substitute “whiteness” for “entrenched privilege”.
Indeed, fear and hatred of ‘the other’ comes in many guises.
…and is mostly manifested in entrenched privilege. You’re a “charitable” person, right?
Uh-huh. So let’s throw away racism as though it doesn’t exist, and talk instead about a multitude of privileges and discriminations, bigotries and instances of xenophobia. Because that would allow you to feel comfortable.
Alternatively. Educate, Your. Fucking. Self. (selves)
Whiteness you say? The image demonstrates how inadequate even the ‘strict’ definition you’ve outlined is.
The notion of “race” has no validity: it’s a rhetorical device. If it’s a rhetorical device it follows that anyone can stoop to it.
Human condition, Stephen Doyle
One which is easily activated using scare tactics..
Many things to be weary about when it comes to expansionist nation states
Such as Israel..one of the most racist states in human history.
..
“weary”
I agree. The struggle for profundity can be tiresome.
Yep, trying to find the right degree of pseudo-delphic profound-sounding-but-meaningless to respond with used to be hard work. Until I found this handy site.
http://wisdomofchopra.com/
The commercial relationship between KiwiRail, Pacific Power Developments Ltd, their agency arrangements with China and the influences of various Ministers of Transport going back needs to be investigated.
Chinese are hard-working, resilient and friendly people and we need to understand them better, not fear them so much.
Absolutely. But their government is an expansionist totalitarian dictatorship, and you bet we should be afraid of that.
@ Psycho Milt
Expansionist? How many overseas military bases compared with the US say. Totalitarian? More like authoritarian – blame Confucius. Dictatorship? They have changed leaders regularly since Mao.
Who needs overseas military bases when they have money they can exchange for influence? And try telling China’s south-east Asian neighbours it’s not expansionist – they’re afraid for good reasons.
Totalitarian: “relating to a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state.”
Authoritarian: “favouring or enforcing strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom.”
Neither’s very attractive, but China is definitely a match for the first one. And it ain’t Confucianism that made China a totalitarian dictatorship much like all the other countries run by communist parties – the common denominator is the communist parties, not Confucius.
Dictator: “a ruler with total power over a country, typically one who has obtained control by force.”
You could argue that the dictator in China’s case is a party rather than an individual, but the effect is the same either way.
Not so sure that Communism is to blame, Psycho Milt. No ‘enlightened’, democratic country has tried Communism. Both Russia and China always had an authoritarian tradition. In China this applied when the Emperor was strong. A weak Emperor meant a weak authority, not a democratic system. Russia was always a poor country, run by despots. Stalin was arguably the most recent of the great Czars. It was an impossible ask to expect either of these countries to turn all democratic and liberal simply because historical circumstances favoured Communist revolutions. The Animal Farm principle has applied in all countries that had such a revolution, and those countries’ regimes rapidly reverted to type.
But because Capitalism’s true nature was unmasked by Marx, the West’s wealthy and privileged have always tried to portray Communism as totalitarian, godless Evil incarnate..
According to libertarians, no enlightened, democratic country has tried capitalism either. I’m less interested in abstract utopias than what ideologues actually achieve on the ground when they gain power, and so far every communist party that’s gained power has justified everything that the West’s privileged elites have said about them.
…every communist party that’s gained power has…
“Communist Party” is an oxymoron. Jist sayin’.
Ok Psycho I’ll continue the discussion.
You should ask America who needs the overseas military bases now ringing China, and how much they cost. No wonder China is looking for ways out via the One Belt One Road strategy.
And in my opinion the Communism with Chinese characteristics means that the party most closely resembles the competency based mandarinate that has underpinned China’s governance for millennia. That is not to say that it doens’t have some Leninist characteristics as well. And then there was the emperor with the mandate of heaven which meant he or she had to deliver.
As for the rest of Southeast Asia fearing China, Vietnam has seen them off before – and the Americans as well of course.
Snakebag, river crab.
China, has come a long way ahead in military terms since wee biff with Vietnam, also with India and next time China has a wee biff with either nation, it well be China kicking them up their jacksy. I think China has the US and it Allies worked out and will attack them by indirect means aka China using its strength to the attack the weak part of the US Alliance. As China does not the strength to go toe for toe with the US Alliance as that will play into the hands of US Alliance and leave China with its only option and it is to go Nuclear.
Yes, the USA is the current hegemonic power, but I fail to see the attraction in having a hegemonic power with democracy and rule of law being replaced by one that’s a totalitarian dictatorship.
At bottom, I don’t care whether China is a totalitarian dictatorship because communism, or because Confucianism – both suck a big one and should be filed under DO NOT WANT by anyone in a western democracy.
And it’s possible that China’s neighbours will be able to stand up to it with American backing – but so what? Why should they have to? That doesn’t make the Chinese government any less of a threat.
They are using a mix of Military power and soft power
They built the man made islands with the South China Sea
They have built ports in Burma and Gawler in Pakistan which a dual purpose and have just open their first openly declared Military overseas base in Djibouti.
There is been talk of a possible Chinese port being built in PNG or Fiji for military purposes.
Biggest concern to a lot of people is the way China is their use of soft power. They are offering very cheap loans to nations with very little oversight and most if not all of their so called Aid/ construction projects have use their own labour instead of hiring local labour and them training them up like NZ Aid, AUS Aid, EU Aid and UK development Fund. With China bringing in its own labour force has already cause unrest in the SW Pacific for example Tonga, Solomon’s, Fiji and East Timor during 2006 and push out local companies owned by local or expats as they lower operating costs and access to cheap building product. This practice by the Chinese is the biggest to NZ, Australia, EU and UK Foreign affairs departments. Also the Chinese tired to do this during the Australian Mining boom until AWU, MUA and CFMEU got wind of this and almost cause a really big stink.
Also China is using its soft power to undermined South Pacific Fisheries, Northern Australian waters to force under reporting of catches by the Chinese. There was a case in East Timor a couple of mths ago where Sea Shepherd caught two Chinese fishing Illegal Shark Fin fishing and further by ET Navy/ Sea Shepherd investigation lead to a Chinese bribing ET official’s and from there the details get really interesting. The Chinese government is using its fishing fleet as extension of its Coast Guard after what happen to a couple of their fishing boats were illegal fishing off Arg’e coast and were blasted out of the water Arge Navy.
One other thing to finish off is the lack of oversight and openness by the Chinese and Russia in the Antarctica with their research by the current Antarctic Treaty Nations especially when the current Antarctic Treaty is up for renewal in the next 5 to 10yrs.
Then we have the Steel reo-bar inquiry in NZ about the cheap use of substandard Chinese reo-bar which quietly disappear after China but pressure in the Government about cutting NZ exports etc and that’s really good example of China using it soft power on a foreign country.
Great points. Agree that expansion is not always done at the point of a gun. Capitalism and WTO opened the door. Wide. The west couldnt resist the wealth that they could accumulate from China. Their arrogance or greed blinds them to consequence.
I do not blame China for walking through doors that are opened to them.
We are alone amongst our allies in the looseness of our foreign ownershop laws. Follow tge money not the guns in 21st century expansionism.
China’s is playing this like a game of chess, while the dumb west are at the casino playing are blackjack or the pokies.
Guess who is going to win in the end?
China’s use of Military power and soft power is straight of the Art of War by Sun Tzu, with a bit of Clausewitz, Alfred Mahan, Von Bismarck and Machiavelli added in to round it off.
We all have the tools.
China’s problem is that it lacks the rule of law.
“Guess who is going to win in the end?”
No one
Celebrate victory with a funeral.
By and large Chinese influence is welcomed around the world, as China does not preach to other peoples about so called ‘human rights’ or have the racial arrogance of the West in demanding that poor developing nations that were pauperized by these same Western powers, only have the right to development and infrastructure and wealth, unless they are perfect social democracies with full recogniton of LGBTQI rights or whatever – something that took centuries for the west to achieve, and could only have been achieved in rich societies with large educated middle classes.
In Africa, poll after poll has shown that the Chinese engagement with that continent is overwhelmingly popular, and Africans prefer Chinese investment over European
Problem with people like ExKiwiForces is they are white people resenting the rise of a great non-white power. So they worry about a relatively benign China a lot more than a rampant imperialist power like the US, and perhaps have even gone and killed coloured people in the service of US imperialism. So its not about what China is doing, but has more to do with a deep racial resentment —unfortunately this seems to abound among the so called ‘left’ in this country
I was wonder when you guys would turn up.
“In Africa, poll after poll has shown that the Chinese engagement with that continent is overwhelmingly popular, and Africans prefer Chinese investment over European” Do you have any data/ links to back up your claims? Most Africans I’ve met through work aka UN Peacekeeping would prefer the opposite as most would prefer an open transparent government with good governance with an independent judicial oversight. Which is now sadly lacking especially in the former British colonies and it also where China now has most influence.
What really concerns most in the west about china is the lack transparent openness, promoting good governance and oversight if china did this there wouldn’t be an issue with china. And what people are seeing at the moment with China is similar traits that the Japs did before WW2 in the Asia region and we all know what happen when the jaw jaw stop.
As someone who has seen the aftermath of some of your country’s Aid projects where you bring in your workforce instead of training up the locals like we do has people worried and there is no doubt half the problems in the Sollys, East Timor, Tonga and Fiji during 2006 wouldn’t have happen had the Chinese’s hired local and trained them.
Then the cheap loans with lack of transparent openness, promoting good governance andt oversight again we wouldn’t have a problem.
Then we have the Antarctica issue and again the lack of transparent openness, promoting good governance and the lack oversight again we wouldn’t have a problem. Some of us here know Antarctic Treaty is up for renewal soon are concern about China and Russian activities on the ice unlike the other Treaty Nations that sharing research information and where is China and Russia aren’t doing that.
One word of advice mate the Mods can get very strict with comments, especially baiting replies and trolling.
Do you have any data/ links to back up your claims?
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/03/africa/what-africans-really-think-of-china/index.html
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2015/05/27/other-perceptions-of-china-views-from-africa-latin-america-and-europe/
Jacob Zuma hails China’s Assistance to Africa, and says ‘Europe sucked wealth from Africa, in debt to continent’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J6qI7WEuY4
Check out the pew research polls of Africans perception of China – google it
This is the way the West behaved in Africa (something they have still not apologized or compensated for). Forcing millions of Africans on to rubber plantations. Chopping off arms and legs
Congo ‘Free’ state
https://nz.pinterest.com/garygarrett353/sadistic-king-leopold-ii-of-belgium/
Germans in Namibia (outright genocide)
http://newafricanmagazine.com/uncovering-german-genocide-namibian-people/
“As someone who has seen the aftermath of some of your country’s Aid projects where you bring in your workforce instead of training up the locals like we do has people worried and there is no doubt half the problems in the Sollys, East Timor, Tonga and Fiji during 2006 wouldn’t have happen had the Chinese’s hired local and trained them.”
And if any country refuses Chinese loans or aid, do the Chinese force it on them?
Fact is China, or any other country, has zero obligation of training up thw workforce of locals —-if any country does not like the type of aid another country offers – they should simply refuse, as is their right. And China will leave them alone
If I offer you a crummy deal, you have the right to refuse the crummy deal and as long as I accept that and don’t point a gun to your head to get you to sign, I have not done anything immoral (provided you are of full functioning mental capacity).
With Western countries though, any country that refuses to bend over backwards and take it up the ass, they get the shit bombed out of them. Or they get outright invaded like the crackers did to the Chinese for 150 years (and to most of the rest of the world)
When the Egyptians nationalized the Suez Canal, these fair and transparent white people went in and invaded.
When the Vietnamese wanted to self-rule, the French cut off heads and massacred civillians, and the Americans bombed the place almost to the stone age.
Your racist hypocrisy is staggering.
No, they don’t have any obligation to do so by not doing so they’re not giving aid but trying to take control of the populace.
That first line needs a small change: Give a man a fish and make him dependent upon the person giving the fish.
Incorrect as you’re ignoring the intent of the deal.
We have an FTA with China. Many say that this is a Good Thing. But when we got sub-par steel from China we couldn’t do anything about it because we’d become dependent. China knew that and used it against us.
So don’t go round telling us that China is all saintly because they ain’t.
Hi Exkiwi
All of that is true and all of it is pushed back against appropriately. It doesn’t mean we or Australia are becoming a puppet state of China, or that we need to follow American direction as to our position.
That’s why I support NZ & Australia having a very robust independent Foreign, Defence and Foreign Aid polices as both countries rely on Open and Free Sea Lanes of Communication to Indo Asia/ Pacific region without Open and Free Sea Lanes of Communication our economic wealth goes down the dunny rather fast.
Which means I support the $20 Billion NZDF upgrade over 15yrs and I have been very critical of both Labours and Nationals handing of Defence (Mark Burton, Coleman onwards and the 91 Nat Government) and Foreign Aid or lack of Aid programs in the Asia Pacific area mainly the Pacific. Even then I think its still $10 Billion short, but with everything ran into the ground again by National. But I rather see my extra $10 Billion spent on DOC, Education, Health, Rail and the Regions etc.
The data I use see every week during Prayers (orders, briefs etc ) before I went down the rabbit hole (I loss access when mental health went south) and when I was on promoting cse 18mths ago makes the long term strategic picture very uncertain/ bleak. Which leads back to my first point.
Here something to think about from the “The Navy” The Magazine of the Navy League of Australia from the Jul- Sep 2017 edition, page 11.
Two-thirds of the world oil shipments transit the Indian Ocean, with more than 15million barrels of oil transiting the Malacca Strait daily in 2004. Also nearly 30% of all global maritime trade transits through the South China Sea annually, including about $1.2 trillion in ship-borne trade bound for U.S ports.
It is not an overstatement to say that the prosperity of the entire Asia- Pacific region is dependent on the security of these vital transit routes. Indeed, as the developing East Asia economies serve as the engine driving the global economy- responsible for about one-third of the world’s GDP growth- the prosperity of the world hinges, in large part, on the Freedom of Navigation through the Asia- Pacific region.
“Goes back to my first point and remember about 95% or more of New Zealand’s exports and imports go by ship. In other if you can’t export you can’t import and if that’s happen NZ’s economy goes south faster than my mental Health (PTSD etc). A wee bit scary would you think? after this Neo Lib BS over the 30yrs has a lot to answer for.
On a personal note Mike, Are you the former Labour President? If so my late grandmother hold you in and the Senior labour leadership team at the time in very high regards where ever she got a visit from the Senior labour leadership team at the old house in Stoke Nelson. She use to be tickle pink when there was a visit and love having the chat to everyone until she went into the rest home.
Yep. NZ has become far too dependent upon trade. Much better for a nation to be able to depend upon itself (Hey, isn’t that what National says about individuals?) rather then becoming dependent upon other nations.
Yes DTB, as you know trying to get people to understand the long term consequences of our trade polices by having all our eggs on one basket aka China (China is our biggest export customer and i’m more than happy for someone to correct to me if i’m incorrect.) is just plain dumb, when one considers the last time we were in this position when 70% or 80% of our exports went to the UK and look what happen when the UK joined the EEC in 70’s.
Now most of our exports head to what I call the North Asian Box (China, Taiwan, South Korea and Japan and the rest of all our South East Asia exports via the Singapore Hub. It doesn’t long to work out that if someone gets a itchy trigger finger or misinterprets his or her orders, ROE or OFOF things will get out of hand very quickly and remember Asians/ nations don’t like losing face as it brings get shame to them, their family and to country etc. We all know what happen when the last person got a Itchy Tigger and things got a tad out of hand rather fast.
As we both know and probably a great many here can remember before the great leap backwards (30 odds yrs of the Neo Lib BS) we use to make our stuff and export the rest and if couldn’t make it here we imported it. Most governments depts has warehouses full spare parts etc and the when the great leap backwards happen all that stuff in some cases between 90 to 100% of stores plus SOE’s was fobbed off either to the private sector, exported or sold for scarp. With the new Neo Lib BS mantra just in time logistics, which in plain English means bugger all stock on hand and we have import the rest from overseas if we can’t make here.
So when New Zealand has a major natural disaster and there is still going to be a few big ones to come yet within 5- 10yrs. There is a mad scramble to get your hands on spare equipment, building products etc before the price goes through the roof and people wonder why there are so many cost overruns during the rebuilding phase etc. Its because of this stupid Neo Lib BS called “just in time logistics” as everything now has to be imported.
Now when you put that into a military/ defence context aka worst case scenario when jaw jaw becomes war war, and if any or all of our major Sea Lanes of Communication gets cut. The things will become very critical faster than a Nuclear Power station in a meltdown or trying to row a boat up the darling or todd river in oz atm. It will be back to carless days, rationing, hell we might even need to bring back those Ab’s, WAB’s, Ka’s and Kb’s etc which some are still around back into service which might not be good for the environment, it faster than a horse and cart. The list is endless and then you will get some muppet/ wally asking where is our NZDF, well got rid of all the sharp bits because the were too dangerous as might upset someone as my late grandmother would say.
@ Mike Smith
LMAO!!! Are you seriously trying to suggest China isn’t a dictatorship? Do you work for the Chinese Embassy in Wellington or the Auckland branch of the Chinese Communist Party’s ‘United Front Work Department’?
No
Yes, expansionist. Just take a look at their actions in the South China as they try to annex that.
Yep. Do it their way or don’t do it at all.
Changing leaders doesn’t make it any less of a dictatorship. It just means that they’ve got a process to change leaders. Same as a monarchy in fact.
South China Sea has always been claimed by China, by both the Peoples Republic of China, and the so called Republic of China (i.e. Taiwan). Its not something new, but rather a reassertion of historical rights. China’s claim is morally and historically justified which I can go into later.
China’s government is China’s business alone. A government can carry out the will of the people without having elections – they have their system that works well for them, and has enabled them to lift hundreds of millions of people out of poverty – without invading the rest of the world and exterminating indigenous peoples. So with all the faults of the Chinese government, the West is hardly in a position to pontificate and preach to china from any position of moral superiority. In fact it should be the other way round —however China really is not a missionizing culture so they can’t be bothered === they just want to do business and are also helping developing countries become truly developed
China’s government is China’s business
…and a totalitarian dictatorship throwing its weight around our back yard is our business.
+111
Throwing its weight around?
If New Zealand scraps the FTA, do you think the Chinese will invade?
Of course not.
New Zealand’s relationship with China was entirely willingly entered into by sucessive New Zealand governments. Not forced on New Zealand.
China is not like Western countries that invade and bomb the shit out of foreign countries when those countries don’t bend over on command.
New Zealand has now banned foreigners buying existing houses —will China invade over that? Of course not.
Unlike the racial cousins of New Zealanders who invaded China, forced the legalization of drugs, and flooded the country with opium in order to reverse an unfavorable trade imbalance.
The specific allegations that concern me have to do with freedom of expression, association and assembly.
What other countries do is immaterial. “He did it too” isn’t an excuse for anything.
“The racial cousins”? Ethnicity has nothing to do with it: those scumbags weren’t too fussed about human rights either.
No it’s not.
http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/historical-fiction-china%E2%80%99s-south-china-sea-claims
http://time.com/4412191/nine-dash-line-9-south-china-sea/
And there’s more where that came from. China is trying to re-write history to cover their expansionism.
No, actually, they can’t as they have no way of knowing what their citizens want.
Would they have been in poverty without that system being in place?
Lifting people out of poverty isn’t much of an endorsement if it was the same system that caused the poverty in the first place. And, yes, the same applies to the Western capitalist system which is pretty much the cause of the poverty that many say that capitalism is lifting people out of.
They did it to is not a valid argument.
And not be held to account as we saw when we got sub-par steel from them and they threatened our exports to them if we carried out an inquiry.
That’s not just doing business – that’s corruption.
“Would they have been in poverty without that system being in place?
Lifting people out of poverty isn’t much of an endorsement if it was the same system that caused the poverty in the first place.”
You need a history lesson dude…. read up on the 100 years of humiliation of China at the hands of your racial brethren.
Here’s something to get started on.
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2012/06/20120619_China3.png
Then come back to me
Yep, the British have an absolutely atrocious record as far as China goes. No doubt about it. Probably a fairly large reason as to why China had a communist revolution.
How Industrialization affected the Poverty in China
As I say, if the system caused the poverty in the first place then it’s not a great endorsement that it then reverses that decline.
And do be aware, I don’t capitalism. I think we need to get rid of it because of the damage and poverty that it causes. thing is, I don’t see China’s ‘communism’* being any better.
* Communism is defined by participatory democracy. Something that is lacking in China.
What the Chinese Government insultingly calls “the century of shame ” was actually – for a moribund China – the century of Western enlightenment .
Of course Chinese arrogance about the myths of its own ” superior” civilisation could never admit that .
Oh By the Wei – I have traveled widely _ including four times to China.
“They do it too” isn’t a defence. If you’re going to blame Kung-Fu Tze why not blame Lao Tzu and Sun Tzu while you’re at it?
Spying is a humanitarian act. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t send dead spies back to the “enemy” with false reports.
Just as I object to NZ kowtowing to US interests, I think both these academics raise important questions about the China Communist Party influence in NZ. Both the MPs highlighted in these items continue active membership of The Chinese Communist Party. Election donations/ contributions are a real issue that needs sorting out. The selling off of high value NZ real estate to absentee foreign owners (many of whom have been chinese) has hugely influenced the potential for NZers on average incomes to own their own house or aspire to a future on their own family farm. The links of a other MPs and ex MPs (like Judith Collins, Jenny Shipley, Ruth Richardson) to big corporates selling off key NZ assets to chinese interests have implications for my kids and grandchildren’s generations. Why would we not be concerned?
Rich individuals buy stuff (like property portfolios). Surprise, surprise, that leaves poor people “out in the cold”.
Britain was the capitalist centre of the world and engaged in violent expansion. Then it was the US and it also engaged in violent expansion.
The capitalist centre is shifting to China, but I don’t see signs of violent expansion.
Nowadays, China is awash with money seeking a ‘home’. When individual Britons or Americans invested their monies overseas (seeking returns) in the days when their respective countries were at the centre of global capitalism, it wasn’t (apparently) a problem. (Not as far as we, the white lords of the world, in general, were concerned anyway .)
But then, “we” were and are white. And unlike ‘back when’, the politics that allowed a goodly number of people to correctly identify capitalism, not nationality or ethnicity, as the problem – well, those political analyses have been largely and quite successfully suppressed and removed from sight.
So a number of people who appear to be Asian are buying a lot of property in Auckland. That must be something to do with Asia and Asians then innit? How dare they upset the “natural order” of things!
What use is this identification with the dominant “tribe of pinkies”, when the expressions of that dominance are fading!? I want to belong to the tribe of winners – no matter how tenuous the actual link may be. It gives me comfort. It allows me to feel bigger, even when everything about me and around me is rendered small or insignificant by…by… I dunno what.
So my sorry, ill-informed arse will rail against “the other”. And I’m sure it will all work out fine.
Just the other day I even heard a smart person on the radio tell me I should do this stuff. She must have been smart or she wouldn’t have been on the radio. She said the Chinese are coming and that they are bad!
🙂
Now there’s a fighting spirit aimed at the bullshit artists. Thank Christ there are still a few around.
You don’t happen to have Maori ancestry do you Bill, and come equipped with a Scottish accent?
Thanks Bill. Excellent comment
As a Chinese New Zealander born and bred here (Grandfather experienced napier earthquake), am sick and tired of China and Chinese people being the scapegoat of all types of social ills in this country —the racialized resentment that a non-white people may be beating white people at their own game is galling to some.
The fact is the development of China, and India, and hopefully soon Africa, the uplifting of hundreds and hopefully soon billions of people out of poverty is something that should be welcomed by all people of good will
Of course it’s welcome. I hope the billions of people manage to defend themselves against their totalitarian government, rather than being crushed by tanks.
“As a Chinese New Zealander born and bred here”
?????
If you are born and bred here then you are not a ‘Chinese New Zealander’, you are simply a New Zealander. (Or maybe you could use ‘A New Zealander of Asian ethnicity’ if you feel you must have your own separate identity). You and many like you talk about diversity and inclusiveness whilst at the same time engaging in identity politics and divisiveness. By describing yourself as a Chinese New Zealander you’re describing yourself as somehow different to other New Zealanders even though you are born and bred here. My parents were originally from England, but I have never described myself as an ‘English New Zealander’ (It has never even crossed my mind to do so and is a ridiculous thing to even consider)
You seem quick to use the ‘racism’ card to try and shut down any views that are opposed to yours. Just because someone doesn’t like what they are observing with their own eyes in their community, doesn’t mean that they are racist. The comments people made about separate Chinese communities (where entire commercial areas have only Chinese billboards, shop names, etc) were about the Chinese, not Indians or Thai’s or Koreans, etc. The Chinese people aren’t a race of people, they are simply people from the country of China.
If someone doesn’t like the Chinese influence or way of doing things in their community, that doesn’t make them racist. To not want your community to be flooded with migrants from a particular country and then changed to be more reflective of a community from that different country is a perfectly legitimate position to have and is not racist.
“China was the world’s worst abuser of internet freedom for a third straight year in 2017, due to stepped-up online censorship, a new law cracking down on anonymity online and the imprisonment of dissidents using the web.”
Sounds like a great country. God knows why anyone would be afraid of its rapidly increasing influence and ownership of New Zealand.
Good luck with trying to control the internet in China
I’ll risk being shot down and accused of racism, but the Chinese are different!
I lived and worked in China for more than three years and my conclusions are:
1. they have an arrogance born of 5000+ years of history. They really do think themselves superior to us laowai (foreign devils).
2. their Confusius philosophy leads them to revere the head of the family and the head of state – but they have, (I found) little concept of ‘society.’ As in, working for the local community. So, even if in another country, their deepest loyalty lies back with China.
3. they are practising ‘creeping genocide’ in Tibet and Xinjiang. Just look at what they’re doing to the Tibetans, Uyghurs and Khazaks in those two provinces.
I think we have every reason to fear China, especially in the manifestation represented by Xi Jinping.
1 and 2 pretty accurately describes British immigrants to this country thought to the not so distant past (without confusianism and substitute state for Queen).
Tracey, I tend to agree – my grandmother, who left NZ only once in her life to go by ship to Australia, whenever she spoke of Home, with a capital H, meant ‘Mother England,”
But, for NOW, a confident and financially rampant China is an entirely different kettle of fish.
Ae!
What a load of BS Tony Veitch —-problem with Chinese now, and other East Asians is a sense of inferiority to laowai, not superiority. Their minds have been colonized. Whites are put on a pedestal in East Asia, and I have worked there for years as an engineer and as a Chinese myself speak the lingo. For example, simply look at all the status products —advertised by white people all over East Asia. A degree from an english speaking country carries a lot of kudos precisely because it is from an english speaking country
Like all people the Chinese have their prejudices, but never the sort of codified ideological racial supremacy practiced by western Europeans.
That is why there has actually been no genocide of indigenous peoples like Tibetans and others etc, but actually the opposite —minority groups in China, unlike the majority Han, have never been restricted by the one child policy, and minority popuations have actually grown under chinese rule —-complete opposite of what happened to almost every indigenous group, Maori included, when coming into contact with anglo saxons.
If the Chinese are practicing ‘genocide’ against minority groups such as the Tibetans they are going about it a strange way:
Professor Colin Mackerras (using PRC censuses) expresses the view that claims such as that the Chinese are swamping Tibetans in their own country and that 1.2 million Tibetans have died due to Chinese occupation “should be treated with the deepest skepticism”:
“ The figures show that since the early 1960s, the Tibetan population has been increasing, probably for the first time for centuries. What seems to follow from this is that the TGIE’s allegations of population reduction due to Chinese rule probably have some validity for the 1950s but are greatly exaggerated. However, since the 1960s, Chinese rule has had the effect of increasing the population of the Tibetans, not decreasing it, largely due to a modernization process that has improved the standard of living and lowered infant, maternity and other mortality rates.”
Fact is ‘communist’ china is almost 70 years old —-more than enough time for a truly genocidal regime to rid itself of minorities —yet the minority population has increased, encouraged by government policy
Tony Veitch spends 3 years in China, does not know the language and thinks he is an expert —-equivalent of a chinese student fresh off the boat, studies at an english school for three years, and can talk with authority about treaty of waitangi partnership and the seabed and foreshore, and Pakeha attitudes towards maori ——the latter is absurd, but no more than Veitch commenting on China —-Veitch exhibits the worst sort of cultural and racial arrogance –something unique to angl saxons
You’re not seriously going to attempt to pull off that completely rubbish argument about the “Han Chinese being good for the indigenous Tibetan population” are you?
When China illegally invaded Tibet in 1950 (so much for the claim that “peaceful China never invaded anyone else”) the population of Tibet was 95% Tibetan and 5% Han Chinese. Now it’s 50% Han Chinese who enjoy political power and business dominance over 50% horribly repressed indigenous Tibetans. That’s called colonisation, it’s just the same as when Israel builds illegal Jewish settlements on Palestinian land.
If China is so confident that the citizens of Tibet approve of its leadership, why not not hold free and open democratic elections? If the Chinese Communist Part is so popular, what does it have to fear? Why are they so afraid of an 82 year-old Tibetan Buddhist monk?
“Veitch exhibits the worst sort of cultural and racial arrogance –something unique to angl saxons”
Wow. Accusing someone of racial arrogance, whilst including a racially arrogant statement within the accusation. Staggering..
I’m staying out of this except to say people are entitled to their opinions based on their own various experiences.
In my own case, my experiences with Chinese NZers have been overwhelmingly positive.
That’s not to say I haven’t encountered the following:
– A former Chinese student staying with my family constantly bullied twice a week by an arsehole of a father in China demanding she marry (another Chinese person only). (She was already in a relationship – legitimate). And not only bullied by parents, but by her various social media contacts telling her to vote National.
– A Chinese couple fronting up at a polling booth, both with their parents neither of whom could speak English, and asking/demanding to be shown how to vote for National
– A Chinese operator of a fast food franchise physically threatening a former employee whilst I attended mediation with him as a support person.
Chinese society (if you can call it that) seems to me to be ultra-competitive – if only because of population size, and can be exploitative.
I can understand some of the above commenters though I don’t necessarily agree with them. And there is a programme of expansionism whether conscious or otherwise. Some of the examples have been already been mentioned – except perhaps what’s been going on in various locations along the China/India/Bhutan/Nepal borders.
Arseholes crop up everywhere. God knows we see enough of them trolling in here at times, and we have enough of them in our own National political party
C’mon Mike, I thought you were more intelligent than that. I’ve just listened to Golriz Ghahramans maiden speech and that was impressive and what a marvellous new-New Zealander she is. Her denouement and scorching criticism of a repressive ” government ” in her birth country was awe inspiring and her relief at finding NZ to be generally accepting and encouraging made me feel good to be an NZer and that we have developed this culture here.
I very much doubt that you would find many Chinese in NZ talk freely like her, although I have met a few who have done privately on occasion.
Show me a new Chinese migrant who has bothered to learn te Reo or even use the odd word or two.
It is my contention that they have absolutely no intention of becoming “New Zealanders” and embracing the generally welcoming and progressive culture that most of us are proud to be thought of possessing, at least not within the next 100 years.
“It is my contention that they have absolutely no intention of becoming “New Zealanders” and embracing the generally welcoming and progressive culture that most of us are proud to be thought of possessing, at least not within the next 100 years.”
..and yet history demonstrates that most Chinese migrants (and migrants in general) to NZ have indeed become “New Zealanders” and embrace our culture.
Yep all the Otago Chinese are fake – ffs there is some serious racist bullshit in the comments on this post – mainly from who got here as immigrants at some point I’d say – they all remind me of pull the ladder up Bennett.
Funny, but as a working class immigrant, I’m picking most of the more toxic and entrenched comments are coming from those who would tick ” New Zealand European” on those official form questions relating (supposedly) to ethnicity that we all come across from time to time 😉
I have liked your comments.
I spose my timeframes are out because when I wrote that I was squishing multiple generations.
Anyway I’ve probably offended a whole group of people for no good reason and thus I’ve become the same as those I’ve complained about.
What’s interesting too are the timestamps on comments.
A reasonable number over a few hours since the intial post, then a lull until @Wei came in to make a few points (legit in my mind), whereupon a match was lit.
Kind of interesting to see what ignites people’s dander, or at least tickles their undercarriages
“.and yet history demonstrates that most Chinese migrants (and migrants in general) to NZ have indeed become “New Zealanders” and embrace our culture.”
Been to East Auckland much ?
“Show me a new Chinese migrant who has bothered to learn te Reo or even use the odd word or two.”
What a load of bs …..no more no less than any other migrant group.
It’s not like the average new English or South African or Indian, or even Pasifika migrant is any different.
How many Pakeha New Zealanders even, use Te Reo – aside from place names?
Chinese are pretty tolerant personally and are pretty much live and let live – they certainly are not anal when it comes to Te Reo or Treaty matters in the way many white people are.
The most racist migrants are white South Africans by a country mile (I’ve worked with quite a few), followed by the English –don’t see you attacking them.
This is about the US Empire but it has points that apply to this thread.
Hans Rosling’s perspective is always worth taking in.
The “good” bit starts at the 5:25ish mark.
What about:
A population policy that’s based on our ability to build sufficient infrastructure, the ability to sustain everybody at a decent standard of living and ensuring sustainability in a warming world (including food security).
An immigration policy that is consistent with the population policy and prioritises those with needed technical skills (insofar as we can ever get this right), or those in desperate need or danger (refugees), and specifically de-prioritises those with nothing to contribute but money and so-called ‘business skills’ .
Get this right and race disappears into the background.
Quantity, wealth and a lack of desire to integrate.
Maori faced it from 1840 to 1900 with pakeha.
Now pakeha face the same medicine from the Chinese.
Colonialism by whatever ethnicity sucks.
Immigration is not colonisation.
Agreed, but I wish someone would tell INZ that.
It is when the National Party controls it. Their wonderful ‘Blue Dragons’ came very close to earning them another 3 years in government. Had they been allowed to continue gerrymandering NZ’s population, they may well have been able to pull off continued National governments in perpetuity.
“pakeha face the same medicine from the Chinese.”
What an utterly absurd, false equivalency.
For one Chinese pay top dollar for land or houses they buy.
Wherease Pakeha forced their way in at gunpoint and confiscated land
Difference is if the elected government turns the tap off in terms of immigration or chinese investment it will stop and that will be that
Whereas when Maori resisted, Pakeha sent more troops in and confiscated even more land.
And Chinese tend to try and learn English. They have never stopped Pakeha speaking english, to my knowledge
Whereas Pakeha whacked Maori kids for speakign Maori
Whereas Pakeha whacked Maori kids for speakign Maori
Teachers in my day whacked kids most days for very little reason. Maori, non Maori we all got whacked, and when we got home we got whacked some more. That is how things were done.
I look forward to your spirited argument about why New Zealand citizens should be able to purchase land and property in China, Wei.
I’m sure you believe in reciprocal entitlements for citizens of both NZ and China, right?
I’d settle for why China hasn’t embraced democracy yet.
This is all part of the pivot to Asia which is really about the US trying to keep their failing empire together through economic imperialism. This ugly TPP shit is all a part of this exercise using proxy nations as economic vassals whose role is to let big US MNO’s do precisely what they did in the past in places like China who are increasingly asserting their sovereignty and shutting them out in favour of their own companies and businesses. Not to mention the fact Chinese businesses are simply beating the US at its own game.
You are 100% right Sparky
John Pilger destroys myth of Chinese aggression”
Can Mike Smith et al who are calling posters racist please explain? Concerns about wealthy foreigners in recent years buying up NZ land, property, and other assets, (sometimes from afar), screwing our electoral system and the very way our parliament functions, and scratching the backs of the powerful MPs who are colluding with them are valid reasons to worry. There IS evidence that wealthy Chinese have been flooding our market for land, property and other assets (talk to any Real Estate Agent in NZ over the last 5 years, check out many local Real Estate offices of the largest firms whose signage is only in Chinese, the online marketing of most NZ property on Chinese Language sites), sufficient evidence to suspect we had a spy for the Chinese government on the Foreign Affairs and Trade select Committee, and that the National Party has been in a very cosy relationship with wealthy Chinese for electoral funding. To call them out on it is our democratic right.
This is an issue about Money, Power and political influence. To call it racism is a cop out.
Sure.
Fuck off Venezia—-buying up NZ land and property —-how much of this is Chinese ? Actually a small percentage —what about Americans, Canadians etc. In fact the Chinese government is actually trying to limit capital outflows
Some Chinese have a bit of spare cash, and they want to invest it, like all people who have some money, yellow, white, brown, black or brindle.
By the way if you had to sell your house, would you sell it for cheap to a local if you could get several hundred thousand more from a foreign chinese investor?
“sufficient evidence to suspect we had a spy for the Chinese government ”
WTF? That guy was checked out by the SIS and nothing was found to be particularly untoward. The only evidence there is is he may have been less than 100% honest in terms of his CV. Not that he was a spy —what a joke===if he was or is why have the new government including NZF been largely silent on it.
“the National Party has been in a very cosy relationship with wealthy Chinese for electoral funding. ” So when wealthy Pakeha or wealthy anyone else contribute to political parties that is OK, but when wealthy chinese do that is somehow a sinister ‘cosy’ relationship —-fact is many wealthy people make political donations
For example the relationship between Talley’s and NZ First. Is this without expectation of some benefit? Of course not
Fact is if Twatford had not fucked up with the chinese names thing, a lot of Chinese, perhaps a majority would have gone left, as they mostly do in other western countries.
Wei,
The main issue with the Chinese’s buying up houses and land is we are not allow to land or houses in China and if we were allow to buy land and houses etc freehold in China this would a non issue for either party.
Bullshit. The main issue was it was perceived that offshore Chinese buying houses were driving prices sky high and making houses unaffordable to many New Zealanders.
The argument of reciprocity was brought up, but that was idiotic. Trade is typically about exchanging stuff that you have and willing to give up for something that the other party has but you dont. Does not have to mean because you won’t sell me your car, I won’t sell you mine, for example. New Zealand signed a trade deal knowing in advance what the terms were, and so there’s no unfairness about it at all.
And even if Chinese opened up land ownership to foreigners, in exchange for Chinese driving up land prices in NZ and having the same puported impact on the property market they had until quite recently, I doubt that many New Zealanders would accept that.
Also consider this. Japan allows foreigners to have the same right as locals to buy and sell Japanese land and houses.
http://japanpropertycentral.com/real-estate-faq/can-a-foreigner-purchase-property-in-japan/
Do you think that given this, if Japanese came over to NZ and bought up big in the same way as the Chinese supposedly were, driving up house prices beyond the reach of the average kiwi, that everyone would then be fine with that?
And surely since Japan allows New Zealanders to buy and own houses and land in Japan, then we should allow Japanese to do so here, scrapping the foreign buyer restrictions brought in by the new government?
@ Wei
“The only evidence there is is he may have been less than 100% honest in terms of his CV. ”
Please tell me you’re joking. He lied on both his residency and citizenship applications. That’s 2 extremely serious criminal offences and NZ immigration law clearly states the penalty for doing so is having your NZ citizenship stripped. No worries for Yang though – he continues to be shielded from justice by his corrupt National party mates and his handlers at the Chinese Embassy.
I have not called any poster (or anyone else) racist
My apologies Mike Smith. I was confusing posts by others with yours.
People who resort to sexualised threats and metaphors usually have a poor argument. I am surprised this is not moderated.
Yes, I would have to agree with your comment, I wasn’t all that surprised when our young Chinese friend jump in last night attacking everyone with racial insults etc etc. It’s the first time that I’ve been called a racist etc also being accuse of going round killing brown people in my current job WTF and I think the last time someone did that in our family was either back in the 1st Indian Mutiny, the war of 1812 or when the yanks give old King George the 3rd the boot and every other time it’s been white fella vs white fella.
Our Chinese friends actions last night is what I’m seeing in our universities, open meetings etc here in Australia (I’m not sure what it’s like NZ) when free speech and open and frank discussions are being shutdown, shouted down by young Chinese students whenever a discussion about China like this one, or in the context of China using its soft power in the region or China under the context of International Law, WTO and the UN etc. And they wonder why we are concerned about China’s motives in these areas, when we can’t have a free and frank open discussion without being call a racist or being shouted down etc.
Good free robust discussions without racial insults etc is healthy for an open democracy. It probably why I love speakers corner outside Westminster in London and this blog site apart from WONZ forum but again I’m a plane, history nut anyway and there is no politics as it’s banned.
Tibet
We used to protest about what happened to Tibet
Now we ignore it and pretend
Tibet? What’s there to protest?
The modernizing of the place, doubling the size of the Tibetan population, enforcing full bilingualism in schools (something New Zealand does not have), abolishing serfdom, suppressing backward feudal and religious customs and superstitions (as has happened all over China). In fact ethnic minorities in China have never been restricted by the one child policy –only the majority Han population were.
Westerners love Asians going round being buddhas and in sackcloth, bobbing their heads up and down to imaginary beings, and subscribing to primitive and worthless ‘spiritual’ beliefs.
The fact is the main reason why non Western peoples fell so far behind the West is because of backward primitive superstitions. They fell behind because they were not the first to develop the modern empirical scientific method.
But when Asians (indeed any group of people) embrace the scientific world view and technology and develop advanced economies and nuclear weaponry, Westerners then gets a case of rapid bowel emptying syndrome
That is what the West really fears – a truly modern non-white state with a powerful military and economy. They don’t mind pedophilic monks running around shitting in rivers and exposing their dead relatives remains to wild scavengers
What I ‘fear’ is totalitarian dictatorships looking to ‘influence’ or ‘harmonise’ what goes on in NZ, especially when that translates into imperialist thugs assaulting our MPs.
Kia ora Wei – I’m not agreeing with everything you are saying in your comments but I am agreeing with a lot of it. Thank you for voicing your thoughts.
Youve dropped a bit now with some of your comments and i see the bold has come out. I have enjoyed the bit of a different viewpoint expressed by you at least just to hear the arguments.
The modernizing of the place, doubling the size of the Tibetan population, enforcing full bilingualism in schools (something New Zealand does not have), abolishing serfdom, suppressing backward feudal and religious customs and superstitions…
Pretty funny – that’s exactly how grumpy old White men on Kiwiblog talk about the “benefits of civilisation” we brought to NZ. Those damn ungrateful Maoris and Tibetans!
Those damn ungrateful Maoris and Tibetans!
Hmm. From reading I’ve done over time, it seems it’s the Buddhists who are decidedly unhappy about post ’51 Tibet – but not the Tibetan peasantry. But then, I guess when you lose your hold over a people, meaning you lose the privileges that accrued from running a medieval state of affairs, then you might not be best pleased.
On the other hand, when you have access to education and health care and are freed from a particularly heavy yoke…
Not that I’d think there’s any comparison between that and what happened with British colonisation here.
Meet the new yoke, same as the old yoke.
I guess colonialist oppression is OK as long as it’s not White people doing it.
It’s pretty well a nonsense comparison.
“From reading I’ve done over time, it seems it’s the Buddhists who are decidedly unhappy about post ’51 Tibet – but not the Tibetan peasantry.”
That is correct. It was the paedophile monks who sat on their asses all day, playing with their prayer beads (also with themselves and one another), while the oppressed peasantry (serfs) were subjected to a horrific regime of forced labour, beatings, amputations, flayings, and executions.
Google it.
If part of the population is essentially parasitic, as these monks were, someone has got to do the heavy lifting for them —only stands to reason that others have to.
This parastic theocratic ruling class hated the overthrow of their vicious rule – that was what the 1959 uprising was about – the aristocrats getting violent over the loss of their privileged position
As even this Guardian article is forced to admit:
“After 1959, it abolished slavery, serfdom and unfair taxes. Creating thousands of jobs through new infrastructure projects, it built Tibet’s first hospitals and opened schools in every major village, bringing education to the masses. Clean water was pumped into the main towns and villages and the average life expectancy has almost doubled since 1950, to 60.”
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/feb/10/tibet-china-feudalism
The fact is education, science, technology, skyscrapers, airplanes, trains, railroads, and modern medicine, antibiotics, vaccinations etc are indisuptably good things that all people deserve.
Superstition, cultural backwardness, religious fanaticism, arranged marriages, serfdom, and life expectancies of under 30 are indisputably bad things – but that is the condition that too many Westerners prefer non-whites to remain in.
@ Wei
I’m an ESOL teacher and I have to say while your English it pretty good, I’m having my doubts that you’re a third generation Chinese New Zealander, born and bred here as you claim. When I see a sentence like:
“But when Asians (indeed any group of people) embrace the scientific world view and technology and develop advanced economies and nuclear weaponry, Westerners then gets a case of rapid bowel emptying syndrome ”
…I start to think your both your birthplace and current location are much closer to Beijing. Are you part of an international brigade of the ’50 Cent Army’ perchance?
(五毛党).
hahahahaa ESOL teachers are the biggest losers on the planet.
Much of their motivation to be ESOL teachers is they can’t pick up a girl in their own country i.e. mostly pimply faced white guys who can’t get white girls – also because they have no real skills beyond speaking their native language which happens to be english —but that is not a skill anymore than an eskimo speaking eskimo.
So they become ESOL teachers for easy access to cheap and willing cruddy Asian bimbos and skanks after a PR stamp
OK, this is really starting to look like a Chinese version of the Putin-bot.
You’re convinced they’re not one and the same?
But for certain another fake.
Teaching ESOL myself I’d be offended, but that’s so weak it’s like a mouse nibbling at my ankles (take note Adam).
“Wei” is a bit too careful repeating scripting talking points about Tibet, especially the stuff about “superstition” versus technology – those ones come up a lot in official press releases. “Skank” is American slang, you don’t see much of it here.
EDIT: Oh right, just scrolled down. Well and truly a “No shit, Sherlock” there.
Is that clear everyone: “Asian” (what country is that again?) women who form relationships with “Western” men are skanks and bimbos.
All hail the glorious children of the October revolution, and the Mothers of June 4th 🙄
Eskimo is offensive to Inuit peoples. Please show some racial respect.
Hey Wei, don’t knock Asian skanks buddy. Your illustrious president Xi Jinping married a former prostitute, so if it’s good enough for him…
That’s a nasty defamatory smear if ever there was one.
Well he went there first is all I’ll say. And it’s true by the way. The Hong Kong booksellers were kidnapped, illegally transported to mainland China and forced to make confessions under duress for publishing this very fact.
Her other claim to fame is singing for the People’s Liberation Army troups in 1989 after they’d just massacred 1000’s of peaceful protesters in Tienanmen Square.
The fact that “selling banned books” is a “crime” doesn’t make every banned book true.
Why should selling books be a crime? Why would the CCP have its Ministry of State Security agents go to all the trouble of kidnapping the publishers of a few a books unless they were deeply embarrassed by their contents?
Why should selling books be a crime?
There are a few reasons outlined in the Crimes Act 1961, section 124.
That said, I suspect the books in this case would have been more likely to be in breach of (the now repealed) Section 84.
Why would the MSS agents go to all the trouble of kidnapping the publishers
Probably because they’re a pack of cowardly authoritarian thugs (the MSS agents, not the publishers). The USSR was afraid of poets too.
In other words, they have plenty of things to be “deeply embarrassed” about. None of this is evidence of anything regarding Peng Liyuan, except perhaps her poor choice in men.
Despite the best efforts of China’s censors to scrub the internet some information still leaks out.
Here’s Peng Liyuan singing for the troops after Tienanmen Square massacre:
http://www.thatsmags.com/china/post/7201/chinese-muckraker-exiled-from-social-media-after-rebutting-nationalist-scribbler
The use of military “entertainment” troupes for providing sexual partners and mistresses for the senior leadership of the Chinese Communist Party is well known. Peng Liyuan was an “entertainer” in one of these troupes before she hit the jackpot and became the mistress and then second wife of China’s future president. In an amazing coincidence not long after that she rose to become the Chinese military’s top soprano:
https://www.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/08/who-are-chinas-entertainment-soldiers-and-why-are-people-mad-at-them/278668/
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/5/inside-china-military-entertainers/
Don’t you hate it when none of your links support your defamatory smear? Singing is not prostitution.
Edit: well, unless Bono’s involved.
From the articles:
“As a former “entertainment soldier” herself, Peng sang for the troops enforcing martial law right after the Tiananmen Square protests were brutally crushed in June 1989.”
“From breaking everyday rules, to allegedly providing sex for higher officials, to possible corruption, the reputation of Chinese entertainment soldiers seems to be falling by the day.”
“Tax-payers are obliged to raise the army; the army, in return, is obliged to provide for military prostitutes.”
“But the role of indoctrination for PLA entertainers has mutated over the years. Communist Party founder Mao Zedong was notorious for womanizing military singers and dancers. A recent memoir by a former air force chief revealed that during much of the late 1960s and early 1970s, the most powerful people in the air force were two of Mao’s mistresses, both from the air force’s Song and Dance Troupe. In addition, several current leading female military entertainers are widely rumored to be mistresses of senior party leaders.”
Good enough for me.
My, what low standards you have.
That’s what all the other party cadres told Xi ;o)
Ha ha, I see what you did there. Well played 🙄
You win mate – that Bono joke was way better *coughs*.
Here’s another:
If Bono and Bob Geldof were both drowning and you could only save one of them, what kind of sandwich would you make?
Blue vain cheese and Onion with a sprinkling of lemon juice
It seems to me as an outsider looking at the commebts that this Wei China-apologist is an agent of Chinese State. an PLA Intelligence officer based at China Embassy in Wellington. China is not a left wing progressive country by any stretch of the imagination. There is nothing socialist or communist in modern Chinese society. It is a Fascist-Corporate Authoritarian/Totalitarian state under the guise of ‘communism’This is a nz left wing blog/media site is it not? So why give free rein to an agent of a foreign power. Everywhere Chinese have migrated in large numbers they have established a permanent non-integrating inward-focused insular colonist group. They actively discourage inter-marriage with non-Chinese & preferentially trade with businesses within their colony & hire only fellow Chinese to work in those businesses. China will not need to invade us militarily to complete the colonisation. They will do it with an evergrowing migrant pop over the next 50 years until they achieve majority. Do not be naive to think that CCP does not have an expansion planning commission within CCP.
Wei’s comments are revealing, not least for what they omit. They’ve made some very good points, and left some issues un-addressed.
“that this Wei China-apologist is an agent of Chinese State. an PLA Intelligence officer based at China Embassy in Wellington.”
hahahahahahaha, thanks for that, that sounds cool! Guess what though ….I’m not just some run of the mill intelligence officer —-I’m a friggin Field Marshall!
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/He_Long.jpg
hahahahaha
“A PLA Intelligence officer based at the Chinese Embassy in Wellington.”
How’s your boy Jian Yang been doing lately? One would hope there’s been a drop in worthwhile information flowing the Chinese Embassy’s way since he got booted into opposition.
It was a bit embarrassing for China when he was outed as a CCP spy, wasn’t it? Not to worry though – his corrupt buddies in the National Party will make sure he gets away it.
Yes, it’s incredibly naive to think that all Chinese immigration is purely individual driven. There is clearly a colonizing mindset among many.
“imperialist thugs assaulting our MPs”
Oh…. you must be referring to Russell ‘kermit the frog’ Norman?
Oh, you must think that calling people names is a good way to deflect from the point, which is imperialist thugs assaulting MPs.
Hmm. Stupid MP chasing an ill-informed sector of the vote (the happy-clappy “Tibet was a Nirvana” brigade) by trying to emulate Rod Donald’s equally ill-informed, but at least respectful mode of protest, pisses off a foreign dignitary’s body guard enough that said body guard snatches his flag away.
I can see how that translates into screeching about “imperial thugs” and “assault”. It makes so much sense.
Since you seem aggrieved that Wei isn’t addressing your so-called ‘point’, maybe you’d extend the courtesy by addressing the substantive points put forward by Wei in comment 29.1?
I suspect you won’t because you can’t and are simply reduced to desperately attempting to score some (any!) petty point that you can then use to validate your racism – ie, I ain’t racist. They be “imperial thugs” who “assault” elected MPs. That must stand before all else! A body guard snatched a flag!! Beware NZ! Beware!!
Looking forward to apologising for unjustifiably calling you out for being a racist arsehat when you get around to intelligently addressing Wei’s points 😉
I agree with Wei’s points in 29.1
Remember what Russel Norman told the imperialist thug? The message about the suppression of human rights? Which is what I’m talking about, wherever the fuck you’re coming from.
You overlook the fact that only white people can be racist, imperial thugs.
All the responses I can think of to that remark will get me banned.
You’re quite safe; I probably should’ve added a /sarc tag.
No, the sarcasm was obvious.
Pity we don’t have a snark tag. //snark
…only white middle aged cis men if you please
Skanks and bimbos eh Bill. See 29.1.4.1
the Great October Socialist Revolution ushered in a completely new age of human history. For the first time in history, ordinary people wrenched the levers of power from their overlords and set human society on a new path.
Without October, no decolonization. Without October, most of the world would still be under the complete domination of Anglo American imperialism. Without October Europe would still be under Nazi domination.
Without October, no Peoples Republic of China – there would be a fragmented country ruled by British, French, Germans, Americans, shooting down Chinese in the streets with utter impunity.
Without October there would be no developing countries —only constantly underdeveloped ones.
Without October, Africans and Asians would still be under the whiphand of the white man, in their own places.
Without October, there would have been no Mao Zedong, a man who has perhaps contributed more to human happiness than any other historical figure (also Vladimir Ilyich Lenin and Joseph Stalin also great men).
Without October, we would not now be seeing the tectonic shifts in world economic power towards the East and away from the West.
Without October we would not have the mensheviks and racial national socialists who infest this site, wailing and gnashing their teeth over the ultimately just rise of a great non-Western power.
…and then there are those who respect human rights no matter who the abusers are.
Wei!
That’s certainly stirring stuff there…needs an accompanying tune, methinks…
…but but but all the other great Imperialist powers have militaristic national anthems too!
I know, I know, I know!!!
And they are sooo much more…macho… than Aotearoa’s wimpy dirge…
For shits and giggles I prefer the land, hope and Glory, the old USSR anthem from the Hunt of Red October or the German (the full length verson) and the Prussian one.
Those who forget their history ….
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_China
The age of empires is at an end; the sleeping dragon has awoken. Some may dream of an endless Han empire, the superior race ruling all with a nuclear fist … but too late.
Something different will arise.
‘superior race’?????
Perhaps you shouldn’t project the mindset of western whites, particularly anglo saxons (probably includes yourself), on to other people.
Have read a comment of yours before about you feeling sorry for your father because he has to stand in a queue of brown and yellow and black skinned folk. Poor guy. Coloured folk should simply kill themselves so your dad can feel a bit more comfortable in his own skin right?
You are obviously an alt-right troll
I guess some people have to remember that it’s okay to be a lefty and be able to point out the bad things in life, even if at the expense of the Chinese investor class. Stating foreign ownership of NZ houses is a bad thing for the people of our country is fine. You’ll still get to left wing anti heaven.
It doesn’t make you a right winger or nazi or bigot. In the case of foreign wealth disaffecting and disadvantaging kiwis, and the poorest of us all the most, it just makes you right.
Pay no notice to the fake posts above. Really, anyone who calls Stalin a great guy is a bit of a fu(k up troll. There is no polite discourse with that.
No more Chinese citizens (and other foreign nationals) buying up homes out from under our feet is a good thing.
Let’s do this, so they can’t.
Ps. If we were really left wing, we’d be nationalising all the non citizen/perm resident property and redistributing it among the needy. How do you like that, comrade chaiman meow?
Edit: Wei just deleted a reply to “nationalising all the non citizen/perm resident property” being okay if not on racial grounds, or something.
Edited my post which made no sense.
“foreign wealth disaffecting and disadvantaging kiwis”
Huh? Was not New Zealand wealthy in the 50s and 60s and 70s because it was part of the British imperial project that went round fucking up these same foreigners and ripping off the wealth of Asians and Africans and it trickled back here.
There is a reason why there are poor countries and rich countries.
‘Foreign’ wealth benefitted heaps of New Zealanders. Even the most redneck Kiwi would hardly blink if offered a big enough price for their home –even if from a Chinese.
The formerly rocketing house prices was not the fault of the Chinese government – the Chinese goverment have tried to restrict capital outflows.
It was primarily the fault of greedy kiwis who sell their homes to the highest bidder and refuse to sell for several hundred thousands less to their fellow countrymen.
You should stop scapegoating ‘foreigners’ and singling out ‘chinese’ for the baleful effects of kiwi greed.
The place, NZ. The time, 2017.
Keep your student politics 101 folder closed on my account.
Feel it, or fake off. 😉
It was primarily the fault of greedy kiwis who sell their homes to the highest bidder
If I advertised my home for sale with the condition “no rich chinese need apply” you’d be here yelling ‘racist’ at me.
And the reason why so much money is trying to get out of China is because it’s the proceeds of crime, gambling or corruption that the Chinese govt is trying to confiscate.
Unfortunately for you I’ve also have extremely close Chinese friends (life long from school days) and an adopted Chinese son who lives and works in Xian City. I’ve also worked and traveled in various Asian countries quite extensively in recent years.
So I know first hand that much of what you are saying is selective distortion and racist propaganda in it’s own right. Hence my sarcastic comment above.
“Unfortunately for you I’ve also have extremely close Chinese friends (life long from school days) and an adopted Chinese son who lives and works in Xian City.”
hahahhahahahhahahahah ROFL
Yeah – some of your best friends are also black no doubt.
Classic setup to create some immunity from charges of racism, while spouting racist shit, or trying to impute racism to other races.
Because some of your friends are chinese, that’s supposed to lend cred to whatever you say?????? hahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahha what a transparently idiotic attempt for believability
—-hence the ‘unfortunately for you [i.e me]’ comment……obvioiusly tring to create the impression that I’ve lost the argument apparently coz you have some chinese friends and an adopted chinese son (you probably married some asian coz you couldnt get a white woman?)….hahahahahaha
[RL: I have been an editor and moderator here since The Standard began almost a decade ago. In addition I’m probably one of the more open and transparent people here, everything I said above will already be known by other regulars here. I only mentioned these things in order you might understand that my opinions are informed by a reasonably close contact with Chinese people and culture over many decades of life.
Normally I don’t moderate much these days, I really don’t care what people’s ideas or opinions are, I believe the purpose of The Standard is to allow free and open debate. And in that spirit I’ve seen no reason to moderate anything you have said until now.
But now you are making personal attacks and behaving in a manner that will cause offense and aggravation. You have only been contributing here for a very short time, on this thread only, and already you are getting a moderation warning. It is the last one you will get. ]
“(you probably married some worthless asian white lovin skank?)”
And this doesn’t warrant a ban because???
Because it’s always worth watching the mask slip.
Notice the retro edit? Which incidentally, doesn’t make it any better.
Worried much, Meow? lol
Desperately tries to glue mask back on face, toupee flapping in the wind. 😆
Worst… comb over… ever lol
Exactly.
I try to give old mate lastnight a wee warning/ hint to go easy on his comments as it was bound to get out of hand as I could see where this was oing. Obvious from today’s comments it went in one ear and the out other quicker than recruit blogs getting out of step on his or her first drill lesson on how to march on the parade ground.
It no wonder Mike quickly pop smoke through the tunnel of love during a break contact from this thread.
Cheers RL for coming in.
How about addressing my points – particularly about how Africans by and large approve of Chinese engagement with their continent.
You mean African dictators like Mugabe and his cronies who are enjoying the looted proceeds of the Marange diamond fields in Zimbabwe while partnering with equally corrupt Chinese mining companies? – Sure.
Ordinary African citizens getting nothing from such arrangements? Not so much.
Whoops! Did I hit a raw nerve? We’ll soon know if this comment gets me banned hahahahahahaha
[RL: Playing games with the moderators always has the same end result. You have used up your warning, and on reviewing some of your other offensive comments above it’s clear that it’s time you took a holiday. One month ban.
(Incidentally I worked seven months last year in an extremely remote location in Nunavut alongside a number of Inuit people; no-one working there would dream of using the term ‘Eskimo’ in any conversation whatsoever, and the fact you so casually used the term gave me a very bad feeling about you.)]
Wei…I agree with any of the comments you have made here. It probably needs another thread, but how the term racism is defined matters here. My own thoughts on this include:
1. We all have negative thoughts about other groups at some stage based on real or perceived threats or injustices. Prejudice is often the term used.
2. In historical terms (eg colonisation experience) these prejudices resulted in discrimination when a powerful ideology supported the behaviour/actions (takeover/ landgrabs/ torture of a less powerful group) even when the colonisers were outnumbered numerically. Having the POWER (political, financial, imperial..) to do so made the difference.
3. Race was part of an ideology that supported such practices ( “destined to rule the world”, “noble savage,” genes determining ones intelligence etc). These days race is a redundant concept in scientific terms. (Ethnicity is the modern preference). So historically, Prejudice & Discrimination & Power = racism.
4. Because our institutions were developed based on power structures and ideology passed down over time, we have had to confront different forms of discrimination and how this has become institutionalised over time. As beneficiaries of such arrangements this has not been easy. Some of us are still working on it.
5. It is true that most NZers are “racist” in that they express negative judgements about other groups and have the freedom to do so. The Peter Thiel citizenship issue, the greed of other NZers in the housing market, Metiria Turei’s revelations about benefit fibs are all examples which were aired in the large group I was with over the election period.
6. Whether the recent issues relating to Chinese wealth and the influence it may/may not be having on our socio-political system can be described as racism is questionable in that wealth in itself buys power. Wealthy elites using our country like a casino (or a bolthole) are bound to raise negative attitudes, especially the way our property is marketed online and sold sight unseen. And especially when our own power holders are feathering their own nests in the process. But we do not have the power to do anything more than complain. The wealthy are a class apart.
Way to go guys.
Ignore the substance of comments made by a new commenter and just goad them for a day to see where it leads. Fucking disgusting.
Wei. Thanks for the contributions you’ve made. Martymars has already, and much earlier voiced his appreciation. I suspect there are others who have been reading this thread, and whether or not they agree with all the points you make, just quietly noting the sad and fucked up antics of Exkiwiforces, One Anonymous Bloke, Union City Greens, simonm, Muttonbird and others.
I don’t think any of those people I’ve just listed have responded directly to a single point you’ve raised over the course of some 20, mostly thoughtful and considered comments. That in itself speaks volumes from where I sit.
Hope to see you contributing in future threads that are free from the crap that’s been splattered on this one.
Wei made every comment of his own free will, some of them interesting and useful and others quite indefensible. I held back from moderating hoping that you or someone else might step up, but sadly no.
FYI My internet connection died in the space between you handing down that ban and my comment being submitted.
Any related comments are back end.
Well bill the irony of this post is now apparent. Good try mike but very entrenched stuff to dig out and some don’t like the digging.
And the double irony using indigenous peoples to do the dirty work – ha – wonders will never cease.
Some nicely puffed up roosters walking round cock a doodle dooing – sane as it ever was…
It’s virtually impossible to discuss the substantive issues (like the alleged erosion of human rights in NZ) without 1. accusations of racism and 2. displays of racism.
If true then why? Is it the colonisation aspect? I think we talk about a lot without racism getting in, but I dunno maybe I’m kidding myself.
Edit. On 2nd thoughts – I thought of a subject – weather – innocent? No there was controversy about Māori words and their overuse from some non Māori. 😡
Allegations of outside influence in our domestic political affairs are fertile ground.
Some of the accusations are genuine. Others may be diversionary tactics (eg: from our local wingnuts whenever the subject is raised).
I think most of the displays are the consequence of privilege, ignorance and stupidity.
“sad and fucked up antics of Exkiwiforces, One Anonymous Bloke, Union City Greens, simonm, Muttonbird and others.”
“I don’t think any of those people I’ve just listed have responded directly to a single point you’ve raised over the course of some 20, mostly thoughtful and considered comments.”
Pull your head in, no substance, bam wannabe. The Wei is clear a wrongun.
“you probably married some worthless asian white lovin skank?”
Preach it. Or mitigate it. I dare ye.
What did Wei say that trumps white lovin skank?
Seriously, back away and accept your avarice was for once misplaced by a conman telling you what you wanted to hear.
Ban? That’s up to your sensibilities, but fuck it, I’ll appeal, not that it’ll do any good.
On reflection, and though still highly unimpressed by the amateur analysis, I believe I may have come off a bit strong in my reply.
For that reason, I apologise, and withdraw ‘no substance’ and ‘wannabe’.
Bimbos and skanks eh. Wei brought that attitude here all by themselves.
I knew the offer of an apology was fake from the start.
There were points to respond to? The one about ESOL teachers being losers hoping to score an “Asian skank,” maybe? The one where RedLogix supposedly married an Asian because he couldn’t get a White woman? The one in which Mao caused greater human happiness than anyone in history? The one in which China freed the Tibetan peasantry from pedophile monks? Personally, I’m not looking forward to future examples of the awesome “points” this agit-prop operative has to offer.
Bill, please refer to my comment 28.1 and when someone calls me a racist, accusing me going around shooting brown or whatever coloured skinned people and then starts throwing racial insults like lollies in a lollie scramble the kiddies gloves came off especially calling someone here a Eskimo which is the most insulting racist word in the dictionary I can think of. BTW I’ve pleasure to work with some of the Royal Canadian Rangers where 90% of that units manning is Inuit. Yes our Chinese friend made some interesting points like most here do and it one the reasons I like coming here because of people’s manners plus I was born with red socks and red underpants ( google Frank Henry Sherman my great great grandfather). But throwing racist insults with gay abandon then he or she is going to get it thrown back at them.
Anyway I’m back in NZ for 10 days on some personal admin and if you around Wellington on 22nd as I have 3hr window or Palmy, would you care to meet up Bill?
On side note this site and one is going to get a wee donation next week.
Sounds like Mike is in denial of Chinese colonialism!
There’s nothing wrong with questioning the intentions of mass Chinese immigration.
Particularly in light of Xi’s recent speech.
Reads like you don’t know the difference between immigration and colonisation.
This is a long moderation comment applying to a number of people who’ve commented on this thread
In “the policy” there is this…We encourage robust debate and we’re tolerant of dissenting views. But this site run for reasonably rational debate between dissenting viewpoints and we intend to keep it operating that way. What we’re not prepared to accept are pointless personal attacks, or tone or language that has the effect of excluding others.
Obviously a number of people who frequent this site are Sino-phobic and/or racist. That’s life. And obviously those things are problematic as they most definitely exclude others when they form part of a comment or, more subtly, when they are the fuel sitting behind comments.
A pack mentality that revolves around getting a commenter to respond or react in a way that will bring a ban down on their head isn’t necessarily fuelled by those things – but then, it doesn’t need to be for it to fall foul of site policy..
So this thread’s got an example of a pack mentality that’s played out to its conclusion. Wei – a new commentator mind – has picked up a one month ban for submitting, absolutely and without a doubt, “less than flash” comments in response to ongoing needling and provocation. In the following incomplete – think “indicative” – run-down of stuff, I’ve disregarded the blatant Sino-phobia and racism that was marking some comments.
Anyway. Let me begin by offering a message of congratulation to those commentators who succeeded in their efforts to be seeing the back of Wei. We have so many Chinese voices – or in this case I suspect it would be more accurate to refer to Maoist perspectives – on this site, that I’m sure one less will make no perceptible difference to the breadth and diversity of the place.
Some of you should come down to Dunedin. We can walk down George Street or Princes Street and I can point out for you the Maoists and the Leninists, the Trots and the anarchists (both lifestylers and social). Or maybe you’d be more interested in the communists or autonomous Marxists? The anarcha fems perhaps? Nah. I guess not.
It seems (in the worlds of some hereabouts at least) that divergent political views can only be the result of (in this case) Chinese State Agents or “putinbots” (Simonm comment 29.1.4 and off-spring comments by – Psycho Milt, Union city greens) and any commentator expressing views that diverge from those familiar to “the pack” belongs firmly in the throw-away file, derisively labelled somethng along the lines of “you lot” (exkiwiforces comment ).
And of course, that file must find its way to the bin.
So circle and close in. Egg each other on and ignore or sidestep rational debate. Maybe start up with false accusations (exkiwiforces comment 28.1) and/or groundless appeals for moderation (Venezia comment 28), or just spring board from those points. Then goad, ridicule, belittle and jab in the hope of eliciting the inevitable bannable comment…and if that comment doesn’t come, then just keep going. Rinse and repeat if necessary (aster comment 29.1.5 / Union city greens comment 32) And if eventually something comes up but slips past moderation, then grab it, swallow it whole and keep regurgitating it because, well obviously it’s so damned offensive to you that you must repeat it again and again and again.
Hell. You can even get into frothing condemnation over “the target” committing an innocent enough faux pas in their choice of terminology if you want – every little bit helps.
Of course. Given that it’s against site policy to indulge in such shit, it’s probably not a good idea. And strutting your stuff after “mission accomplished” like (as martymars appropriately describes it) “puffed up roosters walking round cock a doodle dooing” – yeah -that’s definitely not a good idea.
So there’s a clutch of one month bans coming into effect as of now. It’s one month because that’s what you all were so happy about achieving for Wei. For some of you still able to submit comments, I’d be looking for a cold snap to put some ice back beneath my feet if I was you. At the moment it looks, for some of you, like you’re not being held above water by much more than your own reflection.
[people banned are Simonm, Exkiwiforces, Union city greens. 1 month. – weka]
Bill out of consideration for others comment concisely and to the point.
You go on and on about sino phobists and different types of communists????
What are you trying to say? I feel whatever it was, you could have said it in a few sentences. You also seem to be extremely fond of yourself too.
It’s not healthy for good debate, it comes across as condescending!
I still have no clue what you were trying to say in that long post…
Don’t use personal attacks or be racist? was that it?
I’m too scared to post much about Bill’s bolded comment except to say it’s odd that a wide range of commenters with varying experience on this forum are now walking on egg-shells because of one controversial and openly misogynistic rank newbie who lasted all of one day.
Go back through the comments and see if you can figure out why Wei eventually lost the rag and started responding with personal invective.
Try using the links in the moderation comment. They’ll help get you started.
He’s a big boy. Losing your rag in that fashion is not acceptable on this site and none of the rest of us are afforded the same sympathy and protection you have shown him.
The complaints email is in the contact section for anyone who wishes to use it.
Hi Angel Fish.
It’s not okay to come here and hound others from the site because their political views or perspectives don’t accord with your own.
That better?
Does this mean we can welcome Peter George back?
As far as I’m aware, Pete George can currently comment here.
Are you suggesting that someone simply airing their political views and understandings is the same as (how to say?) irksome interference and derailing?
I never paid much attention to Pete George and his antics. Someone who did can probably give a much better and more accurate description of his commenting behaviour than I just did.
As I indicated in the back-end, I’ve raised this issue of ‘piling on’, or ‘mobbing’ a commenter a number of times in the past and received no support at all. So in this respect I fully welcome this new moderating guideline.
The trick will of course be to apply it in an even-handed manner. It was always my expectation that moderators should focus on behaviour and remain agnostic about the politics.
And yes PG was gang bullied quite mercilessly on many occasions, but to my recollection he never retaliated. But it really is a highly subjective decision as to whether someone is simply ‘airing their opinions’ or ‘indulging in irksome derailing’.
The trick will of course be to apply it in an even-handed manner.
Defining it in the first place would be a start. If say ten people vehemently disagree with a comment and I’m the eleventh, am I risking a ban by saying so?
There’s an obvious difference between engaging in disagreement and aiming to belittle, demean or dismiss the person making the argument you’re in disagreement with.
I think Weka has made a more productive suggestion below.
Early warnings work a lot better than post-mob bans, and even then it’s a lottery: you and R/L, for example, have somewhat divergent opinions on what’s acceptable.
Edit: and Weka’s remark about context (below) muddies the water further, because it means that in some circumstances, “engaging in disagreement” becomes problematic too.
Can, meet worms.
Of course it’s a lottery. Moderation is carried out by people. People are subjective.
But maybe bear in mind, it’s just a blog and a ban, not a scaffold and a noose?
This is a place for political debate and I know I’m not the only one of the opinion that the quality of debates has suffered immensely over recent times – for a number of reasons.
But one major reason in my opinion has been a creeping inclination to focus on imagined personality in lieu of engaging with any actual points raised.
That exhibits itself in a number of ways beyond simple and obvious “name calling”, such as ignoring the content of a comment and throwing in some sort of barbed non sequitur as a response. (for example – one of your own). 😉
Huh? Wei referred to the mensheviks and racial national socialists who infest this site*, wailing and gnashing their teeth over the ultimately just rise of a great non-Western power**.
My response adds a third category besides mensheviks and racial national socialists, and attempts to draw Wei’s attention to the substantive issue, which – for me at least – is allegations of interference in our domestic affairs that has a ‘chilling’ effect on freedom of expression.
So far as I’m concerned my comment (far from being a non-sequitur) is entirely on topic, and engages with Wei’s remarks too. Do I have to restate that I agree with almost all of what they said at 29.1? You can identify the part I had a problem with by my comment in reply, and once again, you will note that my concern is for human rights. Or as Wei puts it, “so-called” human rights.
imagined personality
Yeah, no shit.
*I question this characterisation.
**I pretty much agree with this one.
I think if you see ten people giving someone a hard time then making an eleventh comment is a risk. Because by the time my moderator radar is turned on, I’m looking at two things. One is whether the thread is being disrupted to the extent that it will cause other commenters to leave or not take part. Two is whether there are ongoing patterns of behaviour happening that we already know cause problems.
I get as a commenter myself that it’s easy to see one’s own comment as stand alone, but when a thread is disintegrating or heading down a bad path a moderator is often going to be looking at context.
I think there’s a fair to middling chance I’ll be banning said “ten people” in future threads should ten people [be] giving someone a hard time
Like I say, there’s a difference between bringing down an argument or point of view and bringing down the person behind the argument or point of view.
Is there any chance of an answer to my comment at 12:10, or do I have to guess what the threatened ban is for?
There’s no question to answer that I can see in your comment at 12:10, and I’m oblivious to any threat of a ban from anything said or written by you in this sub-thread.
Two of your comments:
So, having been accused of racism and “throwing barbs”, it turns out you can’t explain the basis of either of them. So I’m none the wiser.
I think your contributions to this blog are valuable. You wear your name well.
It seems derailing usually occurs when conversation moves from the bouncing around of ideas to the personal. Playing the person rather than the ball.
I like Pete George, contrary views bring variety to a thread. They usually leave me feeling ‘If that’s as strong as your ‘against’ argument gets I’m pleased to continue feeling the way I did.’
As far as I’m aware, Pete George can currently comment here.
Are you suggesting that someone simply airing their political views and understandings is the same as (how to say?) irksome interference and derailing?
I never paid much attention to Pete George and his antics. Someone who did can probably give a much better and more accurate description of his commenting behaviour than I just did.
Yes Pete can comment here currently.
As someone who has been in many, many conversations that PG has been in and who in the past year has also moderated him, I think the issue is one of patterns of behaviour that disrupt the thread or the community. In PG’s case, observing that over years makes the patterns of behaviour obvious. Sometimes it’s derailing, but not always.
PG has been given a lot of latitude here because Lynn has a soft spot for him. /shrug.
I personally don’t have too much of a problem with the community reacting to regular, long term commenters who cause problems for the community, especially where moderation is being done lightly. I’ve been in other online communities where that happens, and I regard it as inevitable when there are no other options. Humans don’t put up with disruptive behaviour in other collective situations.
In this case, the person being targeted wasn’t a long term regular who had been causing problems onsite for a while, but was someone new, so I don’t think the comparison with PG is that relevant. I haven’t caught up on all the thread yet, so will save my comments on what happened until I have.
But I am disappointed that The Standard has had another days long thread about China and the community/mods* haven’t taken enough care to make the discussion a good place for Chinese and other Asian people to feel welcome.
*self included, and I regret not following the thread simply as a moderator.
Meh. Someone who’s never posted here before but turns up to cheerlead for a totalitarian dictatorship can expect those with a dislike of totalitarian dictatorships to give them a pretty robust response. And they can expect to be heavily outnumbered, because, well-duh, fellow enthusiasts for totalitarianism tend to be in short supply on a progressive blog. Their ethnicity isn’t some kind of trump card to get them out of that, and it sure as hell isn’t a trump card to let them away with the kind of abuse this one was dealing out. Bill can claim Wei was goaded into that abuse, but I’d say it was more like Wei was goaded into saying what he/she actually thought.
Can you please link to two comments by Wei that you think were a problem in terms of “the kind of abuse this one was dealing out.”? Would appreciate some clarity via specific examples.
Not wanting to speak for Psycho Milt, but as soon as I saw 8.2 I had a good idea what was about to go down. If it doesn’t jump out at you, google “cracker”.
Then the almost inevitable really started to happen at 29.1.4.1.
I would add to the two provided by Andre, Wei’s comments at 31 (the last para) and at 31.3.1 where Wei referred to a well respected longstanding moderator on this site (RedLogix) as “obviously an alt-right troll” after making this unsubstantiated statement:
Have read a comment of yours before about you feeling sorry for your father because he has to stand in a queue of brown and yellow and black skinned folk. Poor guy. Coloured folk should simply kill themselves so your dad can feel a bit more comfortable in his own skin right?
Here you go:
“Read up on a bit of history, Unicus, you ignorant racist cracker”
“Veitch exhibits the worst sort of cultural and racial arrogance –something unique to angl saxons”
“So they [ie, simonm] become ESOL teachers for easy access to cheap and willing cruddy Asian bimbos and skanks after a PR stamp”
“the … racial national socialists who infest this site” [not directed at any individual, but presumably intended to mean his/her opponents on this thread]
“You [RedLogix] are obviously an alt-right troll”
“…you [RedLogix] probably married some asian coz you couldnt get a white woman?”
Linking them would be a pain in the arse, but ctrl-f will find them immediately. That second one’s a doozy, especially if moderators are trying to create an environment that the people being described as “cruddy Asian bimbos and skanks” might feel welcome in.
LOL – naughty, naughty but you are so correct (almost said ‘right’ ….)
Totally agree. He was goaded into lifting his veil.
“Are you suggesting that someone simply airing their political views and understandings is the same as (how to say?) irksome interference and derailing?”
Well you seem to agree with Wei’s suggestion that someone stating their observations and experience is somehow being racist when they were clearly talking about Chinese people not Asian people. Using the ‘racist’ card and ‘Nazi’ cards to shut down debate or opposing viewpoints is worse than “irksome interference and derailing” (whatever they are)
Dunedin is not East Auckland. You should come visit parts of East Auckland and you’d then understand some of the comments made far more clearly.
You also implied in your long moderation comment (‘One less Chinese voice..’) that Wei is Chinese, which he is clearly not (He stated himself that he was born and bred in New Zealand.)
It would seem that you banning those commentaters is not so much about site policy (in my opinion)
you suggest that people commenting were happy to see the back of him and they they probably are. But the reason (in my opinion) is not because of their supposed racism or ‘Sino-phobia’ that you’ve thrown around accusations of.
The reason is far more likely to be the fact that he’s a fuckwit…
Was he hounded out too – might have to check for if he’s white cis male cos he’ll be safe – women and minorities not so much.
Angel Fish – don’t be condescending to our hard working moderators. It’s very cheeky of you to think because this is an open forum, that you can patronise the blog and Bill, with your opinions and start preaching to them.
[deleted]
[Sure, happy to add you to the permanent ban list as you have requested. I suggest people read the Policy. It’s fine to ask about moderation, and even to comment on it respectfully. What’s not ok is attacking authors. – weka]
You say I had ” groundless appeals for moderation” Bill? My comment related to the comment to “F….Off” and earlier sexualised metaphor “any country that refuses to bend over backwards and take it up the arse” used by Wei. As we have seen this later deteriorated into sexist offensive labels for women eg NZ men marrying Asian “skanks” and “bimbos” . Are you saying these personalised offensive attacks are OK? This is what passes for reasonable debate? If so, Im out of here and wont be back. Arrivederci.
Belatedly ” The Yellow Peril”: (Or Open Mike)?
“China has the world’s longest-lasting civilisation, and a Confucianist philosophy and polity quite unlike ours but one that has proved its durability. More recently millions of people have been brought out of poverty. Chinese are hard-working, resilient and friendly people and we need to understand them better, not fear them so much.”
I’m fine with that. Yes.
But. (there’s always a But), I do have concerns around the planet’s burgeoning populations! And Effects!
I trust this is not misconstrued as Racist, but out of a concern for Ghia,
The Links below, (despite the U.S rhetoric), is alarming!) If you care to read.
“China’s pelagic fishing fleet has ballooned to about 3,000 vessels, and that the government of President Xi Jinping does not shy away from conflicts with other nations on the other side of the globe. Indeed, China is waging a fisheries war on a global scale.
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2017/10/30/commentary/world-commentary/china-waging-global-fisheries-war/#.Wg-atVWWbZ7
Or..
“The deployment of both hard and soft power to acquire natural resources is nothing short of hybrid warfare. ”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-fishing-wars-are-coming/2017/09/13/05c75208-97c6-11e7-b569-3360011663b4_story.html?utm_term=.c02e8d0e81b6
Have we reached “Peak Fisheries”?
Check your assumptions re: the allegedly burgeoning population, and what happens when people are lifted out of poverty.
As for overfishing, I know “he does it too” isn’t an excuse, but um, it might be an idea to fix the cameras on our fishing fleet before pointing fingers.
You mean like this …
“With 1,210,193,422 residents reported in the 2011 provisional census report, India is the world’s second-most populous country. Its population grew by 17.64% during 2001–2011, compared to 21.54% growth in the previous decade (1991–2001).
The median age was 27.6 as of 2016. The first post-colonial census, conducted in 1951, counted 361.1 million people. Medical advances made in the last 50 years as well as increased agricultural productivity brought about by the “Green Revolution” have caused India’s population to grow rapidly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India#Demographics
or the Cameras ..
https://www.facebook.com/mjfield/posts/10157024592378066
https://twitter.com/i/moments/edit/931802699334434818
Check your assumptions:
Earth reached “peak child” several years ago.
An aging, and slowing pop growth curve perhaps…
https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth/#uncertainty-of-future-projections
But an increasing one.
“The current world population of 7.6 billion is expected to reach 8.6 billion in 2030, 9.8 billion in 2050 and 11.2 billion in 2100, according to a new United Nations report being launched today. With roughly 83 million people being added to the world’s population every year, the upward trend in population size is expected to continue, even assuming that fertility levels will continue to decline.”
https://www.un.org/development/desa/en/news/population/world-population-prospects-2017.html
And that a shit load of Fish!
Drill a bit deeper and you’ll find out that the UN made a range of predictions.
We don’t just have a domestic over-fishing problem, our carbon footprint looms large too. As I said, if you’re pointing fingers you’ll need to keep a mirror handy.
” … slowing pop growth curve perhaps… ”
Not slowing much. The peak population growth (in absolute numbers) happened around 1990 when there were roughly 90 million new mouths every year, so 83 million per year isn’t much of a drop. Those who want to minimise the problems of population growth tend to talk about the decrease in the percentage year-on-year growth, which looks a bit less frightening.
Given that climate change is going to hit hardest in the areas that mostly have the highest population growth and are already pretty crowded, the UN projections look high to me. But the circumstances that cause the UN projection to be high will also cause a shitload of suffering.
Those who want to maximise the problem have a history of losing bets, and ignoring large parts of the issue.
Thing is, even if we can get the world to adopt better table manners, continuing population growth continues means the crunch time just gets delayed by a couple generations or so at best. And I really doubt that the better table manners thing can ever be made to happen.
continuing population growth
Which has already been debunked: as the various UN links show, population is predicted to peak and then fall.
Debunked?
Hmm.. I think its how one wants’ to extrapolate/explicate the U.N, or other, data perhaps…
“From 2017 to 2050, it is expected that half of the world’s population growth will be concentrated in just nine countries: India, Nigeria, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Pakistan, Ethiopia, the United Republic of Tanzania, the United States of America, Uganda and Indonesia (ordered by their expected contribution to total growth).
The group of 47 least developed countries (LDCs) continues to have a relatively high level of fertility, which stood at 4.3 births per woman in 2010-2015. As a result, the population of these countries has been growing rapidly, at around 2.4 % per year. the combined population of the LDCs, roughly one billion in 2017, is projected to increase by 33 % between 2017 and 2030, and to reach 1.9 billion persons in 2050.”
https://www.un.org/development/desa/en/news/population/world-population-prospects-2017.html
But on reflection .. , and circumstances here, I’ll let Sleeping Dogs lie.
Picking countries that are above average says what about the average? Not surprised you want to let it lie.
Wait until we improve the standard of living (read: energy and materials consumption) of the bottom half of the world’s population to something approximating comfortable working class standards.
Hell, even if we just raise the bottom half of the world to NZ poverty line standards then the crunch moment comes a lot sooner.
Spot on.
As one tiny example, China is currently adding about 16M new vehicles a year to its fleet per annum. 99% of them petrol or diesel powered. This is the result of a mass increase in Chinese wealth and consumption, which in itself represents massive resource extraction and use.
Another reason for NZ to require all fishing boats to have minimum 80% NZ crew.
So it’s Mr. Peter Talley’s employees who are the problem, eh.
Crewing and manpower decisions are made by employers, last I looked. Do you know differently?
Just curious as to why you’re blaming workers of whatever origin, for the actions of the companies they work for.
Talley can hire 100% New Zealanders and still take too many fish.
Please explain how I am blaming employees when it is employers who make the crewing and manpower decisions?
So how will controlling their country of origin (80% NZers) help the problem of overfishing?
https://thestandard.org.nz/the-yellow-peril/#comment-1416042
In light of the unsatisfactory outcome of the recent problems with imported steel, I doubt we’re in a strong enough position to dictate terms to foreign fishing fleets, especially when they can point to our own domestic problems with the issue.
CV
Sounds as if you are putting forward good ideas with each having good effects and hopefully cumulatively great results.
the problem….
“Therefore, the UN warns bluntly that world population, now well over seven billion ‘has reached a stage where the amount of resources needed to sustain it exceeds what is available’. The annual population increase of over 80 million equates to a city for 1.5 million people having to be built, somewhere, every week—with, inevitably, ever more greenhouse gas emissions and the continuing destruction of forests and wetlands, with their multiple habitats for the web of life on which all species depend.”
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/ockhamsrazor/there-are-not-enough-resources-to-support-the-worlds-population/5511900
Unsure why this is news – we’ve been consuming more than 1.5 earths for years now.
and crewing ratios, or apportioning culpability to any particular country will resolve it how pray tell….it is a pointless debate
It resolves it by increasing the costs to foreign fishers, making it less economic and less efficient to operate foreign boats in NZ waters.
and that reduces resource requirement how?
I feel the Chinese people have made more sacrifices to try and address world population issues than any other nation. I was chatting to a guy a few weeks ago that grew up without brothers and sisters, all of his contemporaries did. His parents arranged as much time with cousins and play-dates as they could but sheeesh, imagine us taking on a no exceptions 1 child policy, we’d kick and scream blue murder.
It leads me to wonder about the social interaction ramifications of generations of millions of people never being tickled, pinched, razzed and loved by their siblings.
China solved a problem with their one child policy, but like all solutions, it has created many downstream repercussions. A rapidly aging population and a very spoilt generation with high expectations among them.
And an imbalanced male/female ratio. My son tells me many of his contemporaries look to places like Vietnam for a partner these days.
Yes, whenever we interact with nature there are side effects to manage. No matter if it’s family size or building seawalls, social or civil engineering. Our quality of life into the future seems to largely rest on our better anticipation and addressing of the ramifications, the side-effects.
Especially considering other successful solutions.
Yet their population pyramid isn’t much differently shaped than ours. Look at Germany or India for a dramatically different shape.
https://www.populationpyramid.net/china/2017/
https://www.populationpyramid.net/new-zealand/2017/
https://www.populationpyramid.net/germany/2017/
https://www.populationpyramid.net/india/2017/
Fascinating diagrams. Look at Japan, Italy I think too, Iraq I think was one with great numbers of youth. But still most are rising. There was a lot made of people’s efforts to have male children in China, but the graph shows still a relatively even number for the genders.
30 million more men than women by 2020. I was idly wondering at one point yesterday whether this might explain Wei’s hostility towards ‘Asian’ women, but he says he’s born & bred here so…?
Bill….I wondered if/when you’d get around to pointing your opprobrium at me.
https://thestandard.org.nz/the-yellow-peril/#comment-1416051
A pity the ‘reply ‘ option was not available after your comment, but never mind. I guess as a moderator the power is in your hands to make judgments, and also hinder the ability for those you have judged to respond.
Because I guess that is just how power works.
I posted the National (and disturbingly nationalistic) Anthem of China in response to Wei’s little list of the huge benefits to China and the world in general of the October Revolution and the total awesomeness of Mao which obviously justifies all of the significant adverse effects on so many of those humans Wei claims Mao delivered from the evil clutches of colonisers and imperialistic power structures.
https://thestandard.org.nz/the-yellow-peril/#comment-1415481
It was Friday afternoon, and it seemed to me that all rational discussion was ended and it might help to lighten things up by 1) poking the bromide a bit at Wei’s nationalistic fervour (which had clearly gone over the top), and 2) eventually comparing that anthem, with ours.
I admit that I expected one of the other regulars would ‘get it’ and come back with other examples of similar stirring anthems which often are associated with nations of similar nationalistic ‘pride’.
And in many cases, the reputations of these fervently proud nations have been damaged by their less than acceptable respect for human rights and the autonomy of other nations.
In many cases these fervently nationalist nations with their stirring anthems are BIG. They have large populations and plenty of wealth and often powerful military structures.
The nations that they attempt to dominate, or merely influence the economies or politics of, are often small….like us.
There is a significant power imbalance, and as we on the left generally accept…there is a term for when a powerful entity uses that power to dominate or subdue a less powerful entity.
Its called ‘bullying’.
Bullying can manifest as physical violence. Brings to mind the response from France when some of us had the audacity to stand up to the threat of nuclear arms. Or the ‘soft’ bullying from the US after we told where they could stick their nuclear vessels.
This tiny little country at the bottom of the globe roared, and rallied against bullying from the Big Guys, with their nationalistic pride and their stirring anthems.
There is little doubt that the new resurgent China is having a profound influence on NZ…and this influence is not necessarily to the benefit of all if us. Already there is regret that the potential adverse impacts of China’s seemingly sudden massive wealth and resulting influence on our wee land was not acknowledged sooner and protections for those Kiwis most at risk put into place.
Bill….I wondered if/when you’d get around to pointing your opprobrium at me.
Scratching my head here. I didn’t really think much of anything one way or the other about you posting the Chinese national anthem.
I found it interesting that it’s focus is the people rather than (say) a glorious leader, such as for example, the Queen.
On the influence and effect of concentrated wealth, as I’ve said a number of times (and in this thread too) that’s all to do with capitalism and not any particular nation at any given moment of time.
And, as I also said in this thread, the political analyses that pinpointed capitalism as the font of ills (as opposed to any particular nation) used to be commonplace.
Bill was pointing to One Anonymous Bloke’s comment immediately above yours.
I note the irony that most of the commentary here is written, not in any indigenous languages of New Zealand or of China, but in the language of the most rapacious colonists this planet has ever seen.