Meri Kirihimete to one and all.
This post is a day late, partially because of technological issues and also because of doing nothing at all on Christmas day issues but it is written in response to replies to this TVNZ tweet.
We wish you a very Meri Kirihimete from the 1News team.
We hope you have a fantastic holiday season, spent with those you love–even if it can't be in person this year.
Stay safe, and stay well! pic.twitter.com/c7e2bILX2s
— 1News (@1NewsNZ) December 24, 2022
This attracted a number of decidedly unfestive responses. Like these:
- “Show some respect to the 85% of the English speaking population. Merry Christmas New Zealand.”
- “Ah, yep, I read about those days when maori used to decorate their trees in honour of a Christian religion that they knew nothing about. Making up words is bastardsation of actual te reo which had a vocabulary of 20,000 words.”
- “Far Left 1News!”
- “Where is the translation prompt? fuk me days.”
- “Merry Wokemas and a happy woke year! To all the white saviors at 1News.”
- “For those who dont speak Maori @1NewsNZ means Merry Christmas. Of course they are forbidden from being inclusive (to the main population) , we all have to stop speaking English and become Woke PC minions.”
- “Appreciate you using the corrupted form of the day’s historical English name. It rightly shows contempt for the colonisers’ culture and avoids mentioning the figurehead of the religion they forced upon us. Your work to remake history is helping us all create a just new society.”
- “Go woke go broke.”
- “I appreciate you are attempting to erase our culture, but could you maybe leave us one last Christmas before you fully extinguish us?”
There were some good responses including this one:
- “Thank you @1NewsNZ for using Te Reo in youreasonal good wishes to the people of Aotearoa. I am sorry that a small, angry, insecure but disproportionately vocal minority are saying hateful things to you in what is traditionally a season of kindness in Pakeha Christian culture”
I mean what gives? On a day of rest and family and good will to all people some keyboard warriors in the land of Te Reo Maori decide to get upset enough to vent publicly against the public broadcaster for using a uniquely local festive greeting?
The trouble is these people have votes. And quietly and subtlety or otherwise parties on the right are looking to cultivate their support essentially by using the politics of anger, which is really the politics of fear, to motivate them.
This reminds me very strongly of a scene from The Life of Brian and one that I think provides the perfect response:
Anyway I hope you had a very Meri Kirihimete. Even you TheNZRocketeer.
I've replied to one pointing out their spelling mistake, savior, while pointing out we are in Aotearoa new Zealand. That should get them going.
Doh New Zealand. Sorry. Glasshouses/stones.
I don't get triggered by the use of Te Reo.
But I do get triggered by tokenism done badly.
There is a woman who does the weather on TV1 who sounds great, as if Te Reo is natural for her, and part of her being. Also, I really enjoy the Casketeers. Te Reo is used a lot on that program. But the way they do it is great. Terms are explained along with the cultural significance of the terms. I find it really interesting, and learn a lot about Te Reo by watching that.
But, most of those who announce the news etc generally sound dreadful, and it sounds very contrived and fake. To me it sounds cringe-worthy.
It would be interesting to know how much Te Reo they use in their daily lives or whether they are just paying lip service to it, and using it because it is a requirement of the job.
Indeed it is kind of hard to tell who is culturally appropriating from who here
I notice that Kim Hill is using more kupu Māori and her pronunciation is improving. Good to see.
There's a stage that most people go through when learning te reo Māori of getting it wrong and feeling embarrassed. Depending on who one is around, it's either accepted and people are encouraged to keep having a go even if they don't get it exactly right, or it's inhibitory and puts people off continuing and getting better.
Unsurprisingly it tends to be Māori in the first group and Pākehā in the second ie Māori are both inclined to treat people kindly when making such mistakes or learning, as well as being pragmatic about the necessity of getting people speaking te reo. While Pākehā tend to place a higher value on correctness.
One way around that is immersion, the more you speak and those around you speak, the sooner you get past getting stuck in the whakamā stage. Most of us don't yet have opportunity, so we can practice tolerance and kindness and keep on with learning good pronunciation anyway.
That institutions are now actively encouraging the use of kupu Māori is a good thing for saving the language.
I agree it takes time to sound authentic in any language.
But, on the other hand, if it was any other area of broadcasting, they wouldn't be putting people up who are amateurs at their jobs, and would expect a high level of professionalism.
I think this "close enough is good enough" approach does more harm than good. I think people should be properly trained, and reach an acceptable standard before being let loose on the public.
And, I think TVNZ needs to make resources available. Perhaps that could include a link on their site where people can learn the meaning and significance of phrases being used. I know they repeat the english phrase after the Maori phrase. But this is really still tokenism, as there tends to be subtle differences in the cultural meaning of language in its context, and that should be made available to viewers.
But, on the other hand, if it was any other area of broadcasting, they wouldn't be putting people up who are amateurs at their jobs, and would expect a high level of professionalism.
It depends what one thinks their job is in that regard, really. If one thinks it is to pronounce words in any and every language convincingly that passes their lips, then your observation will seem valid. If, however, one thinks it is to encourage use of the Maori language by all, including those to whom it doesn't necessarily come naturally, then your point will seem rather trivial.
I agree it is good to encourage the use of Te Reo. But I think there are better ways of doing this though, than what they do now, which I think is counter-productive.
I see what is being done on the news to be like a vaccine against Te Reo. That is, many people get totally put off by it, and therefore reject learning anything about the Maori language.
Ways to promote Te Reo that don't get peoples' backs up could include; more programs like The Casketeers. Or, possibly a Maori word being explained sometimes during add breaks, educational programming that teaches the use of Te Reo etc.
I think the article above is really just pointing out how ineffective current methods are, and how they are totally counter-productive.
Watching Māori TV has always been a good way to learn the culture. Let's see where education as a purpose is placed in the new public broadcaster.
Well Mike McRoberts should be OK. He has revived it later in life.
In true small town style (where everyone know the relations/connections of everyone else whether Pakeha or Maori) whenever he came on the news my mother (died 2010 aged 94) would say 'he is related to XXXX McRoberts. I went to primary school with her'
The area he and my mother's school friend, & my Mum really, whakapapa to is the Whakapunake mentioned in Mike McRoberts' mihi.
If you listen to Maori News
https://www.maoritelevision.com/shows/te-ao-maori-news
you will hear the variety of Maori language speakers.
Just as we don't all speak English with a received pronunciation ('the standard form of British English pronunciation, based on educated speech in southern England, widely accepted as a standard elsewhere' from Wiki) Maori speakers have different accents sometimes.
My dad used to tease my Mum by saying ” You’ve got a soft spot for all these young Maori who look your nephews” Winston Peters , Mike McRoberts and a rugby footballers whose name I can’t remember were some she was keen on.
Not at all. See my comments above. I think there should be more effective ways used to encourage the use of Te Reo.
Good grief, I think TVNZ just provides lip service to the requirements of the broadcasting that they get paid millions to promote. They could do a lot more and a lot more effectively.
A few of the usual Nat/Act fanboi dipshits and the likes of @conspiratorial nonsense is me, @newuser with a shed load of numbers: joined December 2022, and @user with a half dozen posts: joined 2014.
Trolling to offend.
Interesting that in the minds of these fearful, bitter, white conservatives, Māori are not allowed to embrace and modify words form other languages.
Have to wonder where the English language would be if the same were applied.
For what it is worth English is almost an entirely borrowed language, the large majority of its words being derived from Latin, French and Germanic language groups.
The actual fraction of arguably indigenous Old English or Celtic words (that fall into the Germanic group) is probably under 20%.
Good to hear you had a day of doing nothing micky, sometime I think we all need a lot more of at this point in history. Hope you get some good holiday cheer.
I'm pretty sure that the % of New Zealand that speaks English is close to 99%. "English speaking" is now the pseudonym for white. Dickheads.
I'm really impressed at how many companies are now making an effort to use te reo, and how fast specific kupu are being normalised.
I also think we should pay attention to the people who are pissed off at teh government for legitimate reasons and will adopt stupid racist positions because that's the place where they feel heard now. Building bridges across difference would be a good move all round (which doesn't preclude addressing racism).
I remember back to 1968 in my second year of English at Canterbury when Elizabeth Osmers, as she was then, informed us that there were 6 words of Ancient Briton left in the English language, one being 'barrow'. All the rest were borrowed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Brittonic_origin
At Training College graduation in 1970, the Professor of German at Canterbury gave the academic address in which he called Māori a second class language unable to be used in modern discussions, giving then that same argument about borrowed vocabulary. (I wonder if he called it 'half-pai'?)
The honoured professor would not have said much had he restricted himself to not using borrowed vocabulary………….
Here is a Wiki article giving a sample of Māori loan words in New Zealand English.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Māori_origin
We should restrict critics of Māori words and loan words in Aotearoa New Zealand to only using those of Brittonic origin!
While I honestly could not care less about use of Maori loan words, I would raise the obvious point: English is not descended from Brittonic (a Celtic language). It is a Germanic language, descended from Old English/Anglo-Saxon. Brittonic words in English are thus also loan words.
Thanks, DS. You are right. 449 AD and all that!
I am too Weka. I had a complete blank when an Auckland based friend sharply said to me ‘What’s that?’ when I spoke of Whatu Ora. They would be classed as those triggered by any phrase in Maori. Now I am very careful when speaking to her now.
I don't class any of this as tokenism, or the pronunciation of newsreaders either. My belief is that if you treat all of these attempts as genuine we don't need to make judgements and it leaves us able to praise and move forward.
And who I am I judge if something done or said in another language is well meant or tokenism.
not a bad position to take, the more constructive position. I’m a bit more cynical, observing not so much tokenism as appropriation by commerce. In the absence of tsmithfield giving examples we can’t judge anyway and I’ll tend to take your position.
It’s up to Māori to decide whether something is tokenismm and if it’s a problem.
Good points Weka.
I went out onto a boat tour on the glacier lake at Mt Aoraki awhile back.
The guide explained that Aoraki means "cloud piercer". I thought that sounded much more poetic and descriptive than "Mt Cook". So, I prefer to use "Aoraki" now.
I do wonder if that sort of approach to teaching Te Reo would work a lot better for people than what we see on the news. I wonder if that sort of approach on the news is the reason a lot of people get resistant to Te Reo, and thus feel antagonistic towards broadcasting of Te Reo generally. Thus the approach on the news may end up as being counter-productive.
But if TVNZ invested in more programming such as "the Casketeers", there might more interest and acceptance of Te Reo generally.
Why did they not include two of the best-known words in the English language?
Anywho, where there any angry responses from other groupings in our multi-cultural society or only from the self-identified anti-woke crusaders?
They are an angry minority. Micky Thank you. You are a gem.
i want to preserve Christmas as much as possible and often rail against the gross commercialisation of it
if people want to buy Cards with Maori greeting or even use it to greet one another at Christmas Day by all means do it.
I guess when the public broadcaster starts adopting it, people may not like it. Important they are able to feed this back to in this case TVNZ.
Btw the woman who had a rant on her personal FB about Whittaker’s chocolate in Te Reowas dobbed in to her employer Bluebird. She was fired for this. There was some sort of legal action over this with a good outcome, although I think the decision has been suppressed.
I think if you right off the backlash about Te Reo, co governance etc as a small angry mob that are right for the plucking by the right wing, I think you are grossly misunderstanding what is happening in Aotearoa at the moment.
There is a struggle between people who want to maintain the status quo, whether that be womens spaces, womens language, our current parliamentary set up (versus what is outlined in HePuapua), and science to name but a few. So although on one level it’s possible to describe the complainers about TeReo as mean spirited at Xmas, it is symptomatic of an underlying dynamic in NZ at the moment.
This will be an on going struggle IMHO.
Anyway a belated Merry Christmas everyone
I used to believe nobody actually took offence about cultural appropriation (apart from the obvious examples of taking offence on other cultures behalf). Going to have to revise that belief now.
If only they were genuine conservatives rather than radical reactionaries.
are people only allowed to want to maintain the status quo if they fit your criteria Sacha, eg. Genuine conservatives good, radical reactionaries bad?
Anker, generally to be called a reactionary is not flattering. Hard to know what your point is really.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactionary
I think given a choice between being a reactionary or being a conservative I would rather be labelled conservative
Its more about reactionaries calling themselves conservatives, for me. Same as 'centre-right' when Farrar and co started promoting it into the discourse.
Gordon Campbell on our nation's slide into right-wing unreason. https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2212/S00027/on-becoming-a-nation-of-political-paranoids.htm
And the connection
https://twitter.com/drkiwicj/status/1607543589013426177
I don't think it is paranoia for people to wonder what the heck the Govt has in mind re co-governance. Hepuapua outlines a radical change to NZ governance and political arrangements, yet the Govt hid it from voters and Winston Peters (the then Deputy PM) before the last election. Now it sits there while Willie Jackson waits for a revision that is tardy in coming. So the Govt has neither ruled it in or out.
As Jim Bolger said in a recent interview, Jacinda Ardern needs to come clean about what she means by Co-governance and where she intends to go with it.
In failing to do so she is leaving the door open for speculation, anxiety and anger.
Our "paranoia" was also fuelled by the attempt to pass by stealth, The Rotorua Bill, that Tamati Coffey presented to parliament last year that. A select committee that took place over two weeks including at Easter, (which shortened the time further), was heard at the Maori Affairs Select committee rather than the appropriate select committee for electorial reform. The Bill didn't proceed because it failed the Bill of Rights test.
The same was true when re-introducing the Gender ID SOP after Tracey Martin had mothballed it. Labour never campaigned on it (nor Three Waters) in 2020.
I have read the Te Huahua report. It is basically waffle with no concrete policies proposed.
You have??
That’s truly amazing since I’ve never heard of such report! Pray tell us, what waffle did you read?
They had announced what they were planning to do a year before. The basic legislation was put into the house in december 2019
So the real question is why you are lying. Is it because you don’t follow politics. Or that facts and you don’t associate without the kind of revisionism to make a bullshit story worthy of dictator, fundementalist preacher, or a Russian propaganda machine.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Waters_reform
In Jan 2020, the water services act was forshadowed as being working on including an outline of what it would contain. What was put in front of the house was what was foreshadowed.
In case you have forgotten – the election in 2020 was 9+ months later. So saying it wasn’t ‘campaigned on it’ is just a lie.
Perhaps you meant something more like the opposition parties didn’t campaign againstbit successfully because they had about as much of an idea about what an alternative was as you do.
You are all godamn useless brainless critics. At least Labour looks at problems flagged back by Bill English and try to find a solution.
"You are a useless brainless critic". I would appreciate it if you didn't personally abuse me. Cheers,
I wasn't aware of that about Three Waters being published in 2019.
I was a member of the Labour Party and I don't recall it being campaigned on in their election manifesto. I also used to have these surveys things mailed out to me about what was important to me as a member and I don't recall being asked about Water reform.
One of the reasons for being on the Standard is to learn stuff(as well as share ideas and thoughts). I am always happy to stand corrected.
Change your mind by all means, but not other people's words like these when you wrap quote marks around them.
Yes agree with you Sacha, accurate quoting and taking care with comprehension do help when discussing issues.
Otherwise it degenerates and I have no wish to see any more Three Waters misinformation any more than wanting to see any more anti vax misinformation.
If you want to make statement of facts without at least looking it up in wikipedia or providing any supporting information for your position, then you probably need to expect the same in return.
The 3 waters proposals in query, review or another has been underway since about 2015/6.
But they have been pointed out as an issue that will cause problems as far back as 2002/3 inside Labour. Marianne Hobbs as Minister of the Environment was discussing the chronic under investment in local body water systems (along with other water issues) extensively inside Labour forums around then.
Doing something about the chronic water under-investment issues has been policy since then. The LGNZ keeps promising that it is getting better over the last 20 years. The evidence of peristent failures doesn’t support that.
I also can’t see any alternative proposals that have a hope in hell of doing anything except allowing the situation to get worse. Certainly, National and NZF haven’t made any. And Acts policy.. 🙄 it is aboutvhow to make money while allowing the situation get worse faster.
Citizens will pay more over the next few decades no matter how things are structured. The biggest differences will come from inefficiency and profit for private interests.
here's the thing I think you might be missing. There are very experienced political commentators here including Laborites who know a great deal about what Labour do and don't do. This is a different level of knowledge than being a member, reading Labour emails and such. Because TS has a robust debate culture, there's a higher expectation around claims of fact.
I used to call out a certain TS regular for lying about the GP (in his case it was intentional). It was a relatively easy thing for me to spot because I'm familiar enough with the GP kaupapa, and how things work. But having to explain why someone is wrong when they're not doing the basics gets tedious.
I've commented above about what 'campaign' means. But as Lynn pointed out, the development of 3 Waters was a simple wikipedia search. Which suggests you're not doing fairly basic fact checking.
If you want to learn, then ask rather than make declaratory statements of fact.
I'm pointing this out because you do periodically make such statements based on limited knowledge. My suggestion to commenters who have patterns like this is to comment less in terms of number of comments, and put more time into fewer comments with a focus on the argument and backing it up.
Thanks Weka and Merry Christmas.
Having had some more thoughts about this Weka, I want to register my strong objection to being accused of lying.
From Lyn's post above
So the real question is why you are lying. Is it because you don’t follow politics. Or that facts and you don’t associate without the kind of revisionism to make a bullshit story worthy of dictator, fundementalist preacher, or a Russian propaganda machine.
I also think extrapoloting to saying the revision is worthy of a dictator etc, is a complete over reaction.
I am a scrupulously honest person. I abolutely refute what Lyn is saying
I will continue to comment on this site. I will qualify what I say as to whether it is a fact or not.
Although I may not have picked that word, both Lynn and weka pointed to wilful or deliberate ignorance aka wilful blindness. This is a (weak?) form of deception and thus of lying.
One of the aims of (robust) debate is to educate others and ourselves, learn, and improve our understanding. Good debaters are open to this and willing to change their minds and self-correct their views when presented with compelling enough information and arguments even when these are inconvenient aka difficult to swallow like having to swallow a dead rat.
HTH
I disagree with what you are saying Incognito
I am not sure exatly what you mean by willful blindness. No one who comments on this site can know all the facts and everyone selectively attends to information that supports their biases. All of us do this.
I doubt if I was making statements that were suppotive of Labour that I would be challenged in the way I am.
Perhaps people in this site prefer it when it is an echo chamber
Depends on what you and anker each mean by 'campaign'. That Labour were working on policy is different from them emailing members and putting out press releases on the policy during the election campaign itself.
I still don't know whether they did or not.
Please explain the mechanics of passing legislation (a Bill) through Parliament (i.e. the House of Representatives) “by stealth”.
Does the GG get to sign off (aka Royal Assent) a redacted version with all text blacked out for it to become Law?
Sorry Anker, but that is funny!! "Left hanging?"
"Paranoia" for you to quote Jim Bolger of Ruth Richardson infamy, and the bale out of BNZ $600 mill. We did not get any discussion about those actions did we?
In his old age Jim likes to be seen as "mellowed" but the scorn is not too far from the surface.
For an "ex-Labour" person, you are choosing strange bedfellows.
Do you disagree with the thought that Jacinda Ardern should explain to the NZ population what is meant by co-governance and where she means to go with it?
I don't have any bed fellows as such Patricia. I listen to all sides and select who makes sense or not to me.
Btw, I hope you and Norm had a good xmas
Thanks Anker. I think I have too many bad memories over many long years of when the Nats were in. Merry Christmas to you as well.
Interesting article from Gordon Campbell Sacha.
Don't agree with all of it but he usually writes well.
Interesting isn’t it, our attitude to Christmas, and Easter.
Of the 29 kids in my Year 7 class, more than 20 of them have no idea about why we celebrate Christmas or Easter.
They do want to learn more Māori.
I support learning of Maori at primary school. It should be compulsory.
I guess NZ has become more secular and therefore the kids at your school don't know why we have Easter or Christmas. Shame. I am an atheist, but given we have public holidays and celebrations on these days I think from a knowledge point of view, good if the kids know why
Teach the pagan origins as well, sure.
It's impossible to make learning Maori compulsory. Whatever classes you require, some of the children will always fail to learn it, and failing won't improve their attitude to the language.
FIFY
You could substitute just about any school subject and it would still be a logical fallacy. Your assertions are way too B & W to be useful in a constructive debate such as this, IMO, but perhaps they are a reflection of your personal attitudes towards te reo Māori?
You also fail to acknowledge that especially children at a young age are sponges and have enormous curiosity and imagination. Children in particular soak up a new language very quickly, almost naturally and instinctively. I’ve seen many examples of young children making friends with local children when on holiday and picking up many words very quickly. It just shows you what the human brain is capable of under the right circumstances. Whether the circumstances are always ‘right’ in school settings is a question for educationalists and pedagogists.
If you're interested in increasing the use of Maori, it's probably best not to assume that children learn a second language any better than adults. That's a very popular folk theory, but the actual studies of language acquisition give mixed results.
I did not say “better”, I twice said “quickly”. I also referred to “the right circumstances” although I did not elaborate.
I am sceptical of your alleged ‘myth debunking’.
In any case, your initial comment was flawed and you seem to have no interest in NZ kids learning te reo Māori at school, which is on-topic.
For the first 9 and 12 years of their lives my brother's kids were dragged around Asia. At various times both were fluent speakers of Thai and bahasa Indonesia/Malay with a smattering of Arabic. They've been home for 5 years so mostly forgotten but apparently two days into a recent trip to Singapore and the pair of them were chattering away to hotel staff in Malay.
Gareth, I don't think it matters too much re some kids failing to learn it. They will pick up some words and that's o.k.
My step child who is part Maori did Maori at High School and learnt some quite well, but has now completely forgot it.
I am sure that going onto a marae or other Maori immersion-type environment it will come back to your step-son. .
See the comment from Joe90 above yours.
I learned German with a person who had spent the first four years of his life in Germany, parents non-German but he had gone to kindergarten and played with and visited, similar aged German speaking children.
After a couple of lessons he suddenly came out with some perfect learner German spoken in the north German accent of the place they lived……..
The teacher said it was there inside and just needed a little priming to get going again, 40 or so years later.
If this post is about Labours insta and fb Christmas posts, that may have played well in highly educated lefty circles but in working class circles it was seen as "labour can't even say merry Christmas"
Fact: Labour can't win without working class whites with no qualifications, it is doing all it can to alienate those voters with this stuff and it's not like labours making their lives better on a ground level.
If we're going to be a fully bilingual country can we copy Canada who have an English Post and an identical french post. This makes sense, owning the "rednecks" does not bring in a single vote.
Honestly this entire year has felt like a heavy handed response by labours Maori caucus freaking out about the Maori party taking a couple of their seats, it'd actually be better for the left if the Maori party took all the maori seats cos it would cause a multiple seat overhang.
In 2023 can the left stop delight in triggering uneducated white people, cis people, straight people and actually focus on bringing voters on to our side winning elections is more important than owning people
Good commentary again Corey.
As I said before, the White working class is a lost cause. They have moved to the right economically has they have socially. Best for Labour to get the PMC and lumpens on board and try and increase the material conditions of the WWC after that.
I have to say Mickey, I'm triggered by not seeing enough Māori.
So to you Mickey this to keep me calm
E kore e mimiti te aroha mōu
But
He pai ake te iti i te kore
Has been used by the state to keep Māori in chains.
My thoughts on this issue have chrystalised a bit further.
The comments Micky referred to are not acceptable at all. But, I think the question that needs to be answered is whether those type of comments indicate a wider public resentment of the way that Te Reo is being promoted through the media. And whether this public sentiment is creating roadblocks to the promotion of Te Reo more generally.
Thus, if people tend to feel that the way Te Reo is used on the news is tokenistic, formulaic, pious, cheesy, and amateurish this may innoculate people against wanting to learn about Te Reo more generally. I accept that may not be the intention of broadcasters, but it may be the way it is received.
If the comments Micky points to do indicate wider public negative sentiment towards Te Reo due to the way it is being used in broadcasting generally, then continuing down this track may prove counter-productive to Te Reo use in the long run.
I do wonder if the sort of approach broadcasting takes to Te Reo is really a budget version to meet government requirements in the cheapest way possible. Whereas more effective methods may simply cost more and therefore are seldom used.
Bloody hell, Rob's Mob just won't let it go will they.
https://www.teaomaori.news/dame-naida-glavish-country-made-kia-ora-acceptable
ts – if you are really disturbed by the infusion of Te Reo into everyday life in New Zealand yet are genuinely keen to learn more, just google "learn te reo". There are many resources out there. And I understand that there are three official languages in Aotearoa – English, Maori and Sign.
I am not talking about me, personally. I don't particularly like the way it is done on the news. I do enjoy Te Reo in other contexts and find understanding various concepts from a different cultural perspective to be quite interesting and enlightening.
That is probably why I find the news stuff very trite and superficial.
In fact, Te Reo was going to be released on Duolingo, and I thought I would do a course using that. But it has been delayed due to covid, and no further updates unfortunately.
My comments focus more on a general perspective. That is, are people being put off Te Reo by the way it is promoted on the news etc. If something isn't working, should we look at changing it?
The tendency has been to blame the recipients of the message when comments arise such as those pointed to by Micky.
What I am saying, is, if these comments are just the nasty tip of a much bigger iceberg, shouldn't we be paying attention to how the message is being conveyed rather than blaming the recipients of the message.
The result may be a much better uptake of Te Reo by the population, which surely is the objective. But, if all we do is blame the recipients for their reactions, then nothing will change.
I think it is possible that Te Reo as it is used on the news is not working well. I don't have any facts about this, but it is an impression I have from talking to people in my circle who are both left and right (mostly left).
I think imposing things top down can back fire.
As I suggested earlier I think Te Reo should be taught at Primary School. This has been raised for years and the response is there are not enough Te Reo teachers. I get that. I have also read an article that says that Te Reo teachers who are in scarce supply are being utilized by the wrong people, ie. Pakeha middle class. I have no idea if that is a fact, but it is worth considering that this might be the case.
I guess it depends on what the motivation is behind Te Reo.
Personally I stopped watching TVone news a while back. I believe the presenters are all over paid and self important. I resent seeing puff pieces about the likes of Hilary Barry etc (they are probably niece people).
I do have a problem with Ministries being given Maori names though. It is a personal issue. I have a learning disability and it is hard for me to pick up unfamiliar names/words. I need to hear them repeated many times before I recognise and can pronounce them. But I don't expect the world to revolve around me and my needs. Its an irritation for me though, and I suspect it is the same for many especially the elederly.
Anyway I think this country is heading for some pretty tough times in terms of race relations (Just my opinion not a fact). I am not looking forward to it.
IMO I think there is a vast bulk of NZders who are now deeply suspious of possible changes to governance in N Z and this is why they might be getting triggered by a smattering of Maori words. A canary in the coal mine.
As a salt of the earth couple I know, who are very good people said to me "I don't mind Maori using Maori words, but what is up with all the Pakeha doing so. We don't want it rammed down our throats". I suspect they are the tip of the iceberg.
Thank you for explaining that.
A TV network integrating te reo into its service isn't imposing things top down. It's honouring the Treaty.
You said upthread,
This is because we are not immersed in te reo in our daily lives. Which is why having it spoken on TV and radio both a necessity (to keep the language alive) and a good idea (to help new speakers retain what they have learned).
Just responding to this, I read an article (sorry no link and just someone's opinion) that to preserve Maori we should teach it to people who will speak it at home. So either teach the whole family or if the family are already fluent in Maori, teach the kids.
Obviously we can do more than this, but I thought it was an interesting idea.
Sure, lots of te reo is geared around that were possible given the limits on availability of teachers and funding.
Having it reinforced on tv, radio, in the supermarket, at WINZ, at work and so on, is part of that. Language needs to be used everywhere in the world.
Anker, whatever your learning disability is, you obviously have various strategies in place to compensate for it, as you are able to engage in in-depth, robust debate about complex political and social issues on this site, often entering into quickfire back and forth commentary. Yet you claim that the same disability causes you to be triggered by Government departments having Maori names. How bizarre and ridiculous.
Also, the "salt of the earth couple" you know, who according to you are "very good people" are ignorant and racist. How absurd for them to supposedly say, "I don't mind Maori using Maori words, but what is up with all the Pakeha doing so. We don't want it rammed down our throats." Are they seriously gate-keeping who can learn a language i.e., only the people from a particular ethnic or cultural group can use the language of that group. How then do they explain people learning another language, including languages such as French, German, Japanese, New Zealand Sign Language, Samoan and Spanish, being taught to New Zealand school pupils? Is it just the Maori language that they resent?
Clearly, this comment thread has left you defensive and backed into a corner, and you are clutching at straws, citing a learning disability that the Maori language triggers, and referring to a couple who you claim are nice and reasonable, but are in fact ignorant racists, as demonstrated by their ludicrous comments.
If you infered I was saying that my learning disability triggers me when I hear Te Reo, then I need to clarrify that that wasn't what I was saying at all. I don't feel triggered by Te Reo. Rather than righting off the people who commented on the TVone webite, I was speculating about what is going on. I think Corey Humm's comments are very helpful on this issue. I am not quoting him directly here, but words to the effect that what working class Labour people noticed was that Labour can't even say Merry Christmas to them..
What I did claim was feeling irritated that Ministries have Maori names. I don't recognise those names and I have to look them up and I don't retain new words very easily at all. That is a fact for me. In my working life, when I met people with unfamiliar (foreign) names, it was a bit of a nightmare trying to remember them and pronounce them correctly. I also said when I that I realize the world doesn't revolve around me. So I wasn't even calling for that to be changed. I still struggle to pronounce Taupo correctly, even though my Maori husband has coached me whenever we pass through there
I was mentioning my learning disability because I am often pinged on here for mistakes such as getting links wrong, not quoting properly (fair enough). It is something I have struggled with since Primary School. I have been very lucky in life to still do what I want despite it. This disability has nothing to do with my political views……
No my Pakeha friend aren't gate keeping who is should learn Maori. They were saying how they felt about the TV One news. They aren't the only ones who have said that. A mixed race guy from South Africa I know, who is married to a Maori woman said the same thing to me about the TVone news.
I guess it depends on what your definition of racism is. Mine isn't that if I don't like Maori being used on TVone news that makes me a racist. (Personally I don't care too much about it, because there are things about TVone news that have lead me to switch it off. If that is your definition of racism i.e. a Pakeha person who doesn't want Maori language who is irritated by Maori language on the tele, then yes my friends are racist. I think that is an unhelpful definition. It becomes a race to the bottom, like when people on the right called Kelvin Davis racist for his comment to Karen (the Act party woman whose Maori). Or those who called Te Pati Maori racist for having something on their website saying that Maori are genetically stronger than Pakeha (they have since taken this down).
But thanks for your comments Saphire Gem (and great name by the way)
Ok, this is very important to know, thanks for saying that. Let me know if you want tech support around linking. I have my own set of disabilities that make certain online forms and conventions challenging and have a fair amount of skill in adapting that via tech.
I have held back from saying it, because I didn't want to draw attention to it. But its pretty obvious I make a fair few mistakes on this blog. I just don't want people to treat me with kid gloves! Probably unlikely on TS! Debate is robust
Thanks for the offer. And also I am bearing in mind what you said about not posting on stuff I have not researched more fully. I am trying to be less reactive!
At the moment, I post a link the submit comment, go back to the link I have posted and copy and paste the quote
I find this odd that Maori for Anker has this triggering effect while we have additions to the English language some drawn from economics etc are these hard to grasp as well?
In language learning there is a concept that if faced with learning a third or later language that often when confronted with a person speaking the newest language you have learned you will reply in the next newest. So if you learned French and then years later German when first immersed fulltime in a German speaking environment your German, the newest cab on the block goes and you may reply in French. You just stick with it and it comes right.
You might be feeling confronted and your brain just wants to cog back to English.
Had you ever thought of learning basic Maori? or listening to the Maori news and letting the language wash over you so the words are not so unfamiliar as to be triggering.
ETA……just seen your addition Anker. Thanks for the explanation.
‘i.e. a Pakeha person who doesn’t want Maori language who is irritated by Maori language on the tele, then yes my friends are racist. ‘
I am not sure why you call this type of person not racist. This is what they call casual racism and being all around us can easily be overlooked as being some of the hardest type to overcome. Racism is not just the big concepts such as access to everything but living in a place where one’s heritage is not causally called into question.
I'm really disappointed to see two progressives here using someone's disability against them in a political debate. Anker didn't talk about being triggered. She talked about the challenge of navigating new words. I also have disabilities that make taking in new, unusual to me words difficult. The main difference between Anker and myself is probably that I have formally learned enough te reo for new kupu to be an easier learn.
I have parts of my brain shut down when it gets overloaded. I compensate for this in various ways so it's not usually obvious (or maybe it is but people misinterpret it), but it is work and I totally get why people find it challenging.
This is going to be an increasing issue with post-covid and long covid impacts on the brain, as well as increasing stress from the state of the world (both covid and chronic stress impact on cognitive function). Being able to have understanding and compassion in a both/and way will help us deal with a pretty serious shift in human experience.
This doesn't excuse casual racism. But what Anker is also pointing to is deeper understanding of dynamics so we can find solutions. Stress radicalises people into positions where they feel safer. Trad left positions of attack politics won't help there, and liberal positions of purity and 'we're on the right side' won't either. Some hard lessons coming up for NZ around this.
I disagree with a fair amount of what Anker is saying, and I'm not saying don't challenge racism. But reflexive arguments without additional thought aren't going to serve us here.
Yes I am sorry,
It has come across as harsher than I intended.
Unfamiliarity can often make us either energised or resentful/threatened.
I guess the trick is to keep in the energised side to the fore when confronted with new things. It is not easy to do all the time.
All of us get brain overload and have various strategies to work around it. One of the better ones is not to be quick draw McCaw.
I am a person with a disability. I don't want to be given a pass though to say or do things in a low level anti way because of this.
Casual racism is a truly difficult problem to deal with. On a personal level if a word/words don't have any effect then one tactic I have had to resort to a few times is to ask myself if being friends with people who don't respect their fellow humans is worth it in the long run.
If it is pervasive a couple of times I have suddenly caught my partner's eye and we have quietly left without a word, saying why to those who asked after, 'where did you two get to?'
"I disagree with a fair amount of what Anker is saying, and I'm not saying don't challenge racism."
Weka are you saying I am racist?
No. I think some of your arguments are problematic in terms of understanding and addressing racism but my comment to Shanreagh was from memory more about debate on TS
Ok cool.
I am not an adherant to Critical Race Theory (just my opinion)
I also think it is unhelpful
I have also been thinking quite a bit since reading this thread about why it is that many of our Ministries are now only known by their Maori name. What is the purpose? So few people speak Maori. Shouldn’t the public service be as accessible as possible to the public? Is the point of changing the names to Maori only to signal something? If so what? Just my wonderings
I’m not an adherent of CRT either, it’s conceptually American and I think it’s a mistake to parse NZ racism issues through that. For instance it’s entirely possible to explain institutional racism without reference to CRT but instead place that explanation in a NZ context.
Which Ministries only use Māori names?
Shanreagh, just to be clear, I am not "triggered" by Maori.
I was talking about my irritation when Ministries are known as their Maori name. It takes me a while to learn and retain new words. I gave the example with trying with Lake Taupo and also in my job it being a nightmare when I met people with unfamiliar names. (e.g Russian, Brazilian in fact any name I was unfamilir with).
My definition of racism is not judging people by the colour of their skin (the old Martin Luther King definition as I understand it to be). That is how I was brought up. Thats what matters to me.
I appreciate you have a different definition of racism. Not everyone thinks the same way.
I know my friends are good people. They have made an amazing contribution to NZ through the environment, business and health. They take people as they find them regardless of race.
The main point about my posts is that no matter if your friends are your friends they can still be purveyors of what is called 'casual racism'.
My later posts pondered about what to do when this happens.
Do you take it up with them?
Quietly drop them?
Quietly leave when numbers are too large, as what happened to me when my partner sensed I was about to hide in the ground with embarrassment at the racism, he was feeling the same way, so we just upped and left, with no drama.
Taika Waititi had a phrase
'Give nothing to racism'
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/new-anti-racism-campaign-featuring-taika-waititi-launched-by-human-rights-commission/VHGOORO2BXOS3U73DWISS6K6UQ/
This is a sophisticated look. What struck me though is that it won't only be one person being racist but Maori are likely to face 'little pieces of racism' all through every day of their lives.
Learning a new language is largely mimicking, we all feel a bit exposed and think we will will get things wrong. You could learn Maori words or phrases as a way of desensitising yourself, you are lucky to have your husband to give you support!
Racism also happens at levels beyond the interpersonal – called 'systemic racism' or 'structural racism' or suchlike.
Extra layers rather than a 'different definition' of it, but which usually include relative social power as a factor (to explain how different people can say the same thing but the results are not the same).
Yes systemic or structural racism is often unseen and therefore more insidious. Think job applications, tenancy applications etc.
And countless assumptions baked into everyday life..
She didn't say that. I'm glad she has clarified, but please take more care when people talk about disability. I can't see the case for defending against racism while being ableist.
17 was a reply to this.
This strikes me as a bunch of unjustified victim blaming. I mean look at the reaction when a humble student of Maori makes his fledgeling attempts to put it to use. And the media is supposed to have brought this on when the same thing happens?
Just think about the fragile culture being created here. I don't think I've seen Christopher manage a single word of te reo since. We are just left in a situation where a 52 year old student is being deprived of proper cultural education by the prevalent attitudes of the country.
Yes, I think that is the nasty tip of the iceberg. That sort of behaviour is totally unacceptable. But, we need to recognise there is an iceberg that is not so vocal and prominent, and find ways to melt it.
I think an incredibly respectful thing to do, when communicating with people from another culture, is to take the time to learn their language and attempt to communicate in that language.
Before going to France a few years I spent about six months learning french through DuoLingo. I knew I would never be fluent or proficient like that. But, I thought it was the right thing to do. I was able to communicate in a basic way, and sometimes the French would get frustrated and tell me to speak in English. But at least I tried.
However, I think that is a bit different to what happens on the news where the aim is more to encourage others to start using Te Reo.
Imagine we were taking the same approach to promoting french. What do you think would have the biggest impact on encouraging people to take up french? Someone like me stumbling along and mangling the language in public? Or a french person fluent in french able to speak in the beauty of the language, and able to explain the cultural significance of various terms used.
While working in Ekaterinburg I learned about 200 words of Russian. I found it a very orderly language to learn and as wit your experience I would never be fluent in it, but it was enough to go shopping by myself, interact with people on public transport politely and give directions to drivers taking me somewhere.
That bit of common language and respect made all the difference; I was no longer the idiot westerner. I even got a brief smile one day from one of the girls working at my local food shop. (Russians never smile in public unless they are massively flirting with you, so I took that as a good day.
) Two decades later I have forgotten most of it, but listening to clips from this current war I am surprised at what I do recognise still.
I found it harder in Latin America where because everyone I worked spoke English (it is usually a requirement to work on a major project site) and when they did converse in Spanish, the 'fast talk' style most people used was completely impossible to follow. You cannot make out where sentences start or stop, much less words. But still being able to use the basic pleasantries or read a menu in Spanish was a really useful skill and welcomed by everyone – no matter how crudely I butchered it.
I firmly believe everyone should be at least bi-lingual. We all have a right to mother tongue, a cultural language and to be also fluent in a global scale language. For New Zealanders in practice this means English and any one of the minority languages spoken by any of the diverse groups in this country – of which there are at least a dozen significant ones.
Given we cannot support and teach all of these languages in the public domain, the only feasible means to support these cultural languages is in the home; where multi-lingualism is easy and natural. I vividly recall at dinner in Germany with a family one night, the four year old daughter effortlessly flipping between English with us, German with her mother, French with her father, and Farsi with the elderly lady who boarded with them. And decently fluent in all of them. (This was in the early 80's and having grown up in a very mono-lingual environment in NZ it was a striking moment for me.)
If we want Te Reo to survive as a cultural language – it has to be routinely spoken in the home. And if we follow this logic; it also makes sense for New Zealanders who would otherwise be mono-lingual because their cultural language is English – to be warmly invited to learn Te Reo as well – or some other language of their choosing.
The basic idea is that over the course of a generation or two, everyone can and should be fluent in at least two languages from childhood. It almost does not matter which languages you are exposed to as a child – once that facility in the developing brain is established, it seems a lot easier to pick up new ones as an adult.
I agree with you Red. Some wise observations there.
I tried to learn a bit of Russian back in the day as well. I was involved in a friendship group for Russian fishermen moored in Lyttelton.
The tools we had back then were pretty hopeless. Oh for Duolingo back then.
On reflection – I think if we went about such a bi-lingual idea as a covertly political project, one with undertones of 'de-colonisation', or seeming to impose Te Reo as the dominant language in New Zealand – people will push back on it.
April this year I recall moving through the entrance hall at Auckland Airport and could not help but notice the large sign along the way saying in BIG letters 'WELCOME TO AOTEOROA' – and in very small letters underneath '(New Zealand)' – making the hierarchy of names very clear. You can see much the same with the renaming of all govt depts – where the Te Reo name now dominates the signage and website title bars. Given this change was imposed on everyone – with little to no apparent democratic mandate – it is reasonable to wonder exactly what the intended end-game is. Is it to replace English as the primary language in this country?
An uncomfortable question that is not only a bit taboo to ask, but has no clear answer either. And in the absence of democratic clarity and accountability – distrust will naturally seep in – undermining and delaying an authentic national, multigenerational, bi-lingual project as I outlined above.
The key point here is that there is a multiplicity of cultural languages present in New Zealand, and any framework of such a project must accommodate all of them in a universal fashion.
You seem to be ignoring the Treaty..
Can you clarify this? One short sentence like that is hard to engage on without making too many assumptions.
Te reo Māori is not just one language amongst many, to be addressed 'universally'.
Like getting blood out of a stone.
Red, I don't actually think there is any agenda to replace English or any such thing.
But I think the problem with the approach that is being taken is that people can get that impression.
If people could be taken on a journey, and learn to value the beauty and cultural significance of Te Reo, I think there will be much more public acceptance, and a lot less push-back, and a much better outcome in the long-run.
Surely it would have been
Welcome to Aotearoa?
or it it part of the story that Aotearoa was incorrectly spelt?
"I vividly recall at dinner in Germany with a family one night, the four year old daughter effortlessly flipping between English with us, German with her mother, French with her father, and Farsi with the elderly lady who boarded with them. And decently fluent in all of them. (This was in the early 80's and having grown up in a very mono-lingual environment in NZ it was a striking moment for me.)"
Seems to be a reasonably typical european (continent) trait…perhaps as a result of the close proximity and regular interaction…my son in law and his family the same, at least able to undersatnd multiple languages and converse in 2 or 3….having said that his (SIL) accent is so thick he is still difficult to understand when he speaks english despite having lived here for 9 years. and having an exceptionally good command of nz english.
Where did you get that impression?
If that’s the (only) intention, then what better way than to show the way, i.e., walk the talk. Why demand perfection & purity? Does all English have to sound like the Queen’s (King’s?) English too? Such prescriptive standard surely would put off many people as unattainable.
Although one could argue that newsreaders are performance artists, when reporting on local (i.e. Māori) news it makes sense to use the local words, idiom, and concepts. However, they read the news and don’t have to give a lecture on all the ins & outs of what they are reporting on.
The primary function of language is communication. If you want (more) beauty then you need to master it, listen to a skilled master, and learn, as with any other art or skill. However, beauty can be experienced at even the most basic level, as children’s stories and poems show, and not just in the sound of the spoken word.
My 3 cts.
Trinny nailed it in her comment, it's not only the disrespect to te reo, it's how far gone people are that they will disrespect someone's funeral.
lol
No doubt he's just quietly swatting up to run the next National party conference fully in te reo. After all as tsmithfield suggests, when learning a language token measures are just gestures. You ought to haere kaha ki te hoki ki te kainga.
History tells us that Te Reo Maori was not the only language that Westminster/colonial governments have tried to eradicate.
And the first language in the 1840's was Te Reo Maori.
Just over Offasdyke the English punished the speaking of the local language. In the early 1900's children caught speaking the language were forced to wear the infamous "Welsh Knot" when in the playground and were to be ostracised by other children in an effort to negate Siarad Cymraeg. Yet now the language is thriving and spoken without shame and derision.
Whether one likes it or not, Te Reo is an official language of New Zealand.
As to the point that there are a plethora of other languages in this country, they also have their own states where they are the first language. But not here – however most government information leaflets and forms have instructions written in several of these languages to assist understanding.
https://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BIM873TeHa-t1-g1-t2.html
Important to remember that some of the missionaries taught Maori in Maori and some Maori wanted their kids taught in English. This is part of a petition to parliament by Maori calling for English to be taught from a very early age.
The people who signed this petition weren't the only ones who wanted their kids to learn English only.
As far as I know this petition is factual
“There should also be a general play-ground for the European and Maori children together. There should not be a word of Maori allowed to be spoken in the school, and the master, his wife and children should be persons altogether ignorant of the Maori language.
…also important to look at the state of New Zealand in 1867 compared with 1840. Many landless and demoralised people.